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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0010166Dwarf FortressCivilizations/Entities -- Generalpublic2017-03-17 12:282017-03-25 06:28
Reporterskyte100 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityhave not tried
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.43.03 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0010166: Conquered sites immediately abandoned
DescriptionI've noticed a trend where if a site is conquered in a war, the winner sets up a site government which then abandons it.
Steps To ReproduceWait for war.
Wait for conquering.
Wait for abandoning.
(Optional) See if the group moves into a cave system somewhere.
Additional InformationUsing legends viewer to look at all conflicts, every time a site is conquered it is then abandoned. The only time one wasn't was when the conflict was between two groups from the same civ.

It also seems that if they can, the new group will launch an expedition to reclaim a cave system instead of actually staying put. One human civ in my save owns one town and 3 caves. Those caves only were claimed after conquering goblin sites and each is owned by group that belongs to the original group set up at those sites and consists of everyone from the original group.
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Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2017-03-17 12:28skyte100New Issue
2017-03-17 12:28skyte100Note Added: 0036329
2017-03-18 04:46LociNote Added: 0036331
2017-03-18 06:59Shonai_DwellerNote Added: 0036332
2017-03-18 07:00Shonai_DwellerNote Edited: 0036332bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036332#r14656
2017-03-19 14:21LociNote Added: 0036340
2017-03-19 16:44skyte100Note Added: 0036341
2017-03-19 17:48Shonai_DwellerNote Added: 0036342
2017-03-19 17:50Shonai_DwellerNote Edited: 0036342bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036342#r14662
2017-03-19 17:51Shonai_DwellerNote Edited: 0036342bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036342#r14663
2017-03-20 15:29skyte100Note Added: 0036347
2017-03-20 15:57skyte100Note Edited: 0036347bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036347#r14668
2017-03-20 15:58FantasticDorfNote Added: 0036348
2017-03-20 15:58FantasticDorfNote Edited: 0036348bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0036348#r14670
2017-03-25 06:28Shonai_DwellerNote Added: 0036367

Notes
(0036329)
skyte100   
2017-03-17 12:28   
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12772 [^]
(0036331)
Loci   
2017-03-18 04:46   
Only some sites are "acceptable" to other civilizations (defined by TOLERATES_SITE tags in entity_default.txt). Dark Fortresses, for instance, are only "tolerated" by goblin civilizations; any non-goblin civilization conquering a dark fortress would likely immediately abandon it because they find the site unsuitable for habitation.

It would, perhaps, make sense for the conquerors to establish a new acceptable site in the same general area (to maintain control of the region and resources) instead of setting out to reclaim a cave somewhere.
(0036332)
Shonai_Dweller   
2017-03-18 06:59   
(edited on: 2017-03-18 07:00)
I've started vanilla human adventurer games in Dark Pits, so there's no problem with taking over non-tolerated sites. Also, I've never seen the "Taken-over-Abandoned" thing happening until just now when I opened your save.

Looking at one of my own right now I have goblins taking over human towns, humans taking over a dark fortress and minotaurs (modded town builders) taking over a hippie retreat. No sites were abandoned.

Yours is a much smaller world than I'm used to though. Is there perhaps a max number of sites a civ can have causing them to abandon places they take over?

Should I upload my save?
(0036340)
Loci   
2017-03-19 14:21   
@Shonai_Dweller:

Interesting. I guess we need a statement from Toady clarifying what behavior TOLERATES_SITE is intended to provide, but that token is apparently unrelated to this bug.
(0036341)
skyte100   
2017-03-19 16:44   
It might be that the groups are generated as a wrong type that is incapable of owning a site. Legends viewer displays the new site owners as a nomadic group from CIV instead of a site government, and spawn a daughter group to settle caves. But this may be a side effect of abandoning instead of the cause.
(0036342)
Shonai_Dweller   
2017-03-19 17:48   
(edited on: 2017-03-19 17:51)
Cave and camp dwellers generally show up as 'nomadic groups' in Legends Viewer. It's not as accurate as Legends Mode which will call them 'refugees' or 'bandits' ot whatever.

I generated a few more worlds last night and still can't reproduce this at all. People take over sites (regardless of type) then don't abandon them. Have you been able to reproduce it at all in other worlds?

Are the sites being abandoned in the final year of worldgen? There's sometimes a clearing out of sites that happens then. If your sites were attacked in the final year of worldgen That would make it look like they're being abandoned as soon as they're taken over I suppose.
(0036347)
skyte100   
2017-03-20 15:29   
(edited on: 2017-03-20 15:57)
All sites I have noticed are taken after world gen. Interestingly they are apparently abandoned at the end of world gen. In two cases they were apparently abandoned a year BEFORE they were taken. IE conquered in 11, abandoned in 10.
(0036348)
FantasticDorf   
2017-03-20 15:58   
If its of any use to you, civilisations will not conquer a site until its site leader has either fled the site or is killed in battle (by being drafted into the ranks/defence) after the successive victory.

To kill a monarch or a number of barons, civilisations will literally deplete the entire enemy civ's population until they kill someone important and vacate the desired spot allowing them to plant a [CONQUERED_SITE] noble (I don't have much more data on what they do alternatively unless its generated). Therefore allowing the remaining enemy population to live nomadically indefinitely from that point on until a new player fortress is founded and the prior settlements will have just changed hands rather than 'overthrown' the previous government.

> Without a market, the government cannot function properly or sign peace deals.
(0036367)
Shonai_Dweller   
2017-03-25 06:28   
Here's a save which disproves this trend:
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12786 [^]

Perfectly normal vanilla 43.05. No mods.
You'll find elves who took over Dark Pits and a Dark Fortress. Humans who've taken over Pits and Forest retreats. Goblins who've taken over Dwarf fortresses. None abandoned.