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Notes |
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The cap only takes effect after a Dwarven Caravan arrives and successfully departs from your fortress. Does this explain your situation? |
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(0011385)
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dezbro
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2010-08-01 21:45
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I suppose it does but then I don't think that would constitute this any less of a bug. That doesn't sound logical to me since a hard pop-cap is a performance option and shouldn't be tied in to the realism of a dwarven caravan appearing. Anyway, thanks for the info. |
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I have my cap set to 200, yet I'm still getting migrants when my population is over 220. (ver 0.31.13) |
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Version 0.31.13 had general bugs with migrations, which also allowed for guys like "Drunks" and "Master Thieves" to migrate to your fort.
For reference, see the following bugs: 0003241, 0003258, 0003296, 0003254, 0003264 and so on. |
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I've had my cap set to 30 dwarves since before the creation of my current world. 3 1/2 game-years later, I'm now up to 113 dwarves. Caravan has come and gone multiple times. I even have a barony now :P |
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(0014991)
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dravus
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2011-02-04 17:00
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I have that bug right now
DF 31.18
Cap 100
pop 120 |
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I've never had any trouble with the cap, but in 31.21 it has no effect. |
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this is a really old bug, i remember reporting this way back in 40d in the forums |
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DF 31.25
Still having the bug. Have had population cap set to 20 since world gen. it appeared to be working fine for quite some time, Before I had a baby. Now, I figured the baby probably bypassed this cap, but then I received a new migrant wave.
With the number of dwarves reduced to below 20, things appeared to be functioning again, till I ended up with 28 dwarves. Numbers have since fallen to 21 again, and appears to be holding steady. I have had this problem in numerous other fortresses that I can remember, although I possess no metrics. |
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Still having the bug.
Why is this not considered a major bug? Unless you start murdering dwarves wholesale it makes the game unplayable past year two |
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@Corona688 Because most don't have the bug? I've played several (10+) and have yet to reproduce it. |
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31.25, I have this issue.
Population cap is set at 200, King brought the population up to 203, and two more waves of immigrants have occurred after that, bringing my population to 218. |
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(0017509)
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Kogut
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2011-04-25 13:41
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31.25 - confirmed
"The cap only takes effect after a Dwarven Caravan arrives and successfully departs from your fortress."
and
"I suppose it does but then I don't think that would constitute this any less of a bug. That doesn't sound logical to me since a hard pop-cap is a performance option and shouldn't be tied in to the realism of a dwarven caravan appearing. Anyway, thanks for the info." |
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31.25 ; this is a NEW bug - or at least, it hasnt happened for me yet.
Its now year 2 or 3, dwarfs came and left, and my population increases way beyond the limit. I got at least 2 migrant waves, when I already was BEYOND the limit - so not even a big wave when I was close to the limit.
This is an annoying bug indeed.
Further suggestions for testing? |
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(0017589)
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akd
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2011-04-30 17:45
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Definitely can reproduce. It's been a while but I seem to recall the first migration will have at most (cap - current) migrants, potentially bringing it up to the cap, and then future seasons will have the same max amount until it decides no more migrants are allowed.
It's not just a performance option, but a difficulty option as well. |
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(0017607)
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Kon
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2011-05-03 06:10
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Cap has been working for me if I don't count children and babies. (31.25) |
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31.25. Cap is definitely NOT working. Liaison has come and gone, just had my 2nd migrant wave over my cap. |
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(0017641)
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Naros
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2011-05-05 17:15
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Same for me. I had the cap set at 30.
One wave took me to exactly 30 ... then an other to 38, and then one to 50 before immigration ceased. |
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I too have had this issue. Liaison has come and left twice already with the population cap set at 30 and I'm still getting migrants despite being at 48 now. |
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@Holy Mittens - see if they come next year. There is some lag between the two events. If you really want 30, set your cap at 7 or something like that. You'll end up with 30. |
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v31.25, population cap 30, population 78, and the migrants just keep coming... |
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31.25, popcap at 1 (with 0 kids) playing hermit challenge... 0 exported wealth...
i have a room with 438 engraved slabs...
do i have to talk to the dwarven caravan to have it work - because i didnt... |
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Quintilius, please see my very first note on this issue...
"The cap only takes effect after a Dwarven Caravan arrives and successfully departs from your fortress. Does this explain your situation?"
Note that this is only the best explanation of previous game behaviour and not necessarily an accurate depiction of the current game. If you're not talking to the dwarven caravan at all then it starts to sound like it's expected in your case.
Immigrants do not only check exported wealth, they also check total fortress wealth - so your 438 engraved slabs are rich enough to draw them in possibly. |
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I'm having this problem as well. I had my population set to 50. When I noticed I was at 53 (though immigration not child birth) I upped it to 70, hoping it would take this time. Now (after about a year and a visit from the dwarven merchants) I'm up to 80 with my most recent migrant wave.
I wouldn't care but those worthless immigrants just stand around doing nothing all the time because I have no huge projects to work on. I've ~ 40 idle dwarves and no idle shops that I can find. My FPS is crashing and I'm tire of building furniture for these leeches.
I'm abandoning that fortress. I hope the cap takes on my next game.
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I've never once had the pop cap work, migrant waves just kept coming and coming. |
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Is this problem universal for this version or are there some people who have the pop. cap work?
I've officially given up on dwarf fortress until I find a way to make the cap work again. |
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(0017937)
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kwieland
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2011-06-05 15:21
(edited on: 2012-06-18 09:49) |
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I cannot reproduce this bug. Specifically, the population cap has always worked.
I agree that limiting immigration is a hardware limit. As such
1. immigration shouldn't depend on the caravan
2. immigration shouldn't depend on fortress or exported wealth
3. immigration shouldn't be tied to events in game
4. you should be able to turn immigration off
(I can't complain since 0.31 DF on my win2k machine doesn't work.)
To try to reproduce this bug, I set [POPULATION_CAP:20] in the d_init.txt file, then generated a world. I haven't touched the d_init.txt file since. I embarked and the first year I had three immigration waves, bringing my total to 22 (slightly over the cap). I played an additional year and no more immigrants arrived. Some have suggested that it was triggered by wealth, I had legendary herbalists with legendary cooks booze cooking, so my wealth was over 200k, so I don't think it is a wealth issue. I didn't "dig in", but I doubt that would make a difference.
Show me how to reproduce the bug, please?
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(0018269)
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dree12
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2011-07-17 09:52
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This in my opinion is a suggestion, as I believe the popcap is intended to work this way. Therefore, I think the following should be implemented:
[POPULATION_CAP:0] this is a hard limit on births and immigration
[IMMIGRATION_LIMIT:200] default for an in-game option to set the immigration limit, behaves like current POPULATION_CAP |
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(0018441)
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Moose
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2011-08-06 13:43
(edited on: 2011-08-06 13:44) |
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I am 90% certain that this issue is with the region or world or whatever word you want to use for it. I'm not quite done testing but I have not experienced this bug at any point in the past, but after generating a region, every fortress in which I had a chance to notice the bug on that region has had it. The two modifications I made to the default generation parameters of that world were an unusually long gen time (1050 years) and slightly increased embark points. My money is on the embark points thing being the issue, but I may have modified another minor parameter. Either way this at least gives us a place to begin looking. I will post again when I finish confirming that this is region specific (I'm running through a few forts on another region and seeing if it has the bug). If anyone would like to help test, I would recommend trying a long gen world with no other changes, then a world with increased embark points, and then both, and see if any of them trigger the bug.
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Good idea. With a default world I could not reproduce this issue. My posts above were for default world with a 3x3 embark. Large embark/long gen times sounds interesting. Can you post world parameters that cause this bug? or a save? |
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(0018474)
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Moose
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2011-08-10 19:13
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Been pretty busy, I'll upload the save though since I don't remember the specific parameters aside from the big two I changed. What hosting service is usually used here? |
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(0018483)
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kwieland
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2011-08-12 06:28
(edited on: 2011-08-12 06:29) |
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Started a new fortress yesterday. Set a population cap of 75. My fortress reached this cap half way through year 2 and remained at 75 until year 4. I continued to generate wealth and import and export goods via elven, dwarven and human caravans, so, under normal circumstances, subsequent migration waves should have arrived.
While creating a magma pump, a pet sprung a leak and one of my dwarves died, taking my population down to 74. During the next season, a new migration wave arrived, pushing my population up to 83. Since then I have had another two, pushing up to 89 and then 101. |
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(0018555)
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axkibe
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2011-08-17 09:04
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I just had this bug. 51 Adults, 1 baby. And a new waves comes. 2 dwarfen Caravans already came. Yes I also had 4 deaths during an unlucky ambush. I uploaded the savegame (actually the whole DF folder, so with all configs), a few seconds after resuming it, a new wave will come.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4852 [^]
I'll try to play with that one more wave, if another comes, its a game breaker for me, since I don't want 8 FPS with a 200 fort, its not fun. |
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(0018556)
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axkibe
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2011-08-17 09:05
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BTW: Neither I want to massacre dwarves just to be under the cap, its not my style of gaming. |
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(0018558)
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axkibe
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2011-08-17 12:35
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I had a death and anoter 2 come bringing me up 52 (excluding 2 kids, including it are 54) But now the waves seem to have stopped. |
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axkibe, what is your cap set to? 50? |
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(0018565)
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axkibe
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2011-08-18 06:27
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So in your case axkibe, the population cap is working. @berksdan, did your population ever level off, or did you abandon? |
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(0018600)
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axkibe
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2011-08-21 09:24
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It seems the cap is only effective at some point of the year, so during the year you started with less than the cap, you keep getting immigrants bringing you quite somewhat over it. |
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(0018995)
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Naros
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2011-11-17 09:42
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I have an other game in a different world, cap set at 30, and now I have 54 dwarves and nobles making mandates and such that I Do Not Want. :/ |
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Hello, I've been redirected here from my ticket - http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5264 [^] - and while I realize that centralization is good for the purposes of solving bugs, it is very clear that this is an old issue and it is not in any way resolved. Looking over the posts above you can clearly see several contradictory reports, all of which are true for the posters, I'm sure.
For one thing, the population cap does not seem to recheck after the Dwarven caravan; the liasion can come and go for years without any noticeable change in acceptance of the population cap. As an example - I set my cap to 25 before worldgen. Pre the liasion arriving, I had 22 from starting and restarting until my numbers were close so that the last wave of immigration would push me nicely over into safety. My total population shot up to thirty-one, a pretty harsh drain on fps, but manageable. However - they continued to keep arriving. The population does not level off or stop arriving.
This has been around since 2010. Please upgrade it from a minor issue. |
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The severity and priority fields aren't actually relevant to how we prioritize issues on the tracker. Don't worry about them. But yes, this is an old bug and hopefully it'll get addressed once Toady has worked through the newly introduced bugs. |
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Thanks - I know that there's a lot to take care of and I don't want to repeat what other people have said better than I, haha!... But it really does mean a lot to know that it's being looked at. |
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(0021182)
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Blah
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2012-03-06 11:45
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In 0.34.05 this bug is still present. |
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(0021189)
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kwieland
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2012-03-06 15:09
(edited on: 2012-06-18 09:49) |
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Foot - it seems that this is really two issues related to the immigration "limit".
1. For older computer systems, having no immigration is a necessity. Does the game respect the limit? Yes/no. It seems no, that you'll always get one to three waves of migrants. Why not respect the no imigrants?
2. The immigration "limit" for established settlements isn't being honored. Or it relates to when the caravan comes and goes, liason, or other things. Since these are FPS issues, not gameplay issues, it seems pretty major for those who experience them.
If the population dips below the limit, another wave will be spawned. Perhaps this can be turned off? Once you've hit your limit, you're on your own?
I have not been able to reproduce the second bug (though I've tried), but perhaps others can?
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(0021221)
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Orkel2
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2012-03-07 10:04
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Happening to me now. I've had the pop cap set to 100 + child cap set to 20 since the beginning of the fort, and I just got a migrant wave that put me to 133 total population - that is, 13 dwarves more than my pop cap settings allow. |
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This issue is still occurring in 0.34.07. Cap set to 20, now up to 58 dwarfs. |
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(0022236)
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Moritz
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2012-04-12 04:05
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this is certainly a major problem |
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(0022433)
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TiredOlGoat
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2012-05-05 04:51
(edited on: 2012-05-05 04:52) |
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Hey, just checking up. Since Blueoceandeltalambda has said that this still is happening, is there any way/mod that sets a hard cap on migration/onscreen population? Bringing the FPS to a crawl within the first summer is... Well, depressing to say the least.
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Just reading through as I am having the same problem, currently with 178 dwarfs a pop cap of 80 and FPS at 15!!!. Here is what I am noticing,
There is a conflict between pop cap, immigration and birth rate. Pop Cap works, so long as nothing happens to extend beyond the cap. For example, at one point in my fort I had 50 dwarfs for a year, but my birthrate was set to 10. I had three babies pulling pop to 53, then got hit with migration waves which put me to 72. Once an event has occured to exceed pop cap, then pop cap is ignored.
I had this happen with a death as well. I increased my pop cap to 80. Had 80 dwarfs for about a year, 2 got killed, which signaled for a migration. I received 3 on that migration wave, which put me over my cap, and thus many more waves. Suggestions: set birth ratio to 0. Its not an even fix as you still have the deaths to deal with. |
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Had a similar situation to what jelaw just described on my current fort on 34.11. Cap at 100, and a particular migration wave brought me up to that. Went through a season or two (don't remember exactly) at 100, and then a dwarf gave birth, and the next season another wave of migrants showed up.
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(0023131)
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eliotcougar
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2012-06-30 10:33
(edited on: 2012-06-30 10:41) |
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Happened to me last time in a 34.11... Fortress got 2 waves for a while and reached the cap at 30... Then I got no immigrants for a while until Dwarves started to give births... As soon as I reached ~ 35-37 dwarves a sudden immigration wave of 14 dwarves has arrived...
PS: Then FUN came and fortress fell... :)
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I have always used the Phoebus graphics kit, and have experienced this problem since i first started to play. Downloaded the LNP 34.11 yesterday and set my pop cap to 50, and forgot to install my graphics. Went back to install the graphics and realized it reset all my settings (obviously did something to some of DF's files). Speculating whether or not this could be a glitch from a third party addon? Since some people cannot reproduce the problem perhaps they are not using any graphics packs/other third party addons that effect game files? Or maybe its a problem with Phoebus? I will be testing out some ideas today. |
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I don't mean to detract from the other issues listed above, but my report had no graphics packs attached, and bot the value for immigrants set to 25 and the cap for children at 0/0. Meaning no children 'pushed' me over the cap, and thus I would like to unmerge my report from this thread if it is believed the cause is related to tileset behaviors. |
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(0023502)
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ag
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2012-08-29 00:05
(edited on: 2012-08-29 00:19) |
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What is actually communicated to the home civ by caravan is not the population cap - it is the current population number. So, once you drop below the cap and it is communicated, you will get migrants until the number is updated again.
I think that migrants should be immediately added to the numbers in the civ, because, after all, they should know how many they have sent. In this way, you'll have to wait for the caravan to get more migrants, not to get them to stop.
Edit: Yeah, and during the first two special waves the number in the civ is 0, so the only way to stop them is to set the cap to 0 too.
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Why are the first waves forced upon the player/not dependent on immigration cap? I am very confused by that design decision, though it would be a measure of hope if it means that by setting all immigration integers to 0 for the first waves and then adjusting upward until I tap out my FPS, I can get a working fortress for the first time in some time. Thank you for the update - it is much appreciated. |
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(0023756)
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ag
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2012-12-01 05:31
(edited on: 2012-12-01 05:38) |
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The code evidently tries to simulate information flow between your fort and home civ, which is a valid goal. The problem is that as simulated the home civ apparently has nobody who can do arithmetics, because they definitely should know that migrants have set out for your fort, but don't add them to your expected population count. Also, during the first waves that data simply doesn't exist yet - it is created when the first caravan arrives.
Basically, either popcap should be considered a purely performance feature and checked against the true population number, or the civ should account for migrants so that they err on the side of assuming higher population (in case of deaths).
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That would be fantastic - and true to your prior suggestion, I set my birth AND population cap to zero - not seven, or ten, zero - and seem to have not experienced migrant waves yet. I'm really hoping this works as I've missed playing this game immensely. =) |
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In 34.11, I'm still getting loads of births even though I'm over the population cap (default caps, population of 234 at the status screen.) I've also gotten at least one migrant wave since hitting the cap.
I'm managing a respectable 60 FPS, but it's irritating to see it seemingly ignoring my settings like this.
Edit: Never mind. It didn't occur to me that the total shown on the status screen included animals; I wasn't actually over the cap.
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In 0.34.11, I just got a migrant wave, even though I set the cap to 7 before playing.
"Basically, either popcap should be considered a purely performance feature and checked against the true population number, or the civ should account for migrants so that they err on the side of assuming higher population (in case of deaths)."
Agreed, and I think the reason people expect it to be an inviolable performance feature is because it's implemented as an init.txt option. If it were settable via some in-game mechanic, exceeding the cap by a few waves would probably be more acceptable -- the less meta, the more acceptable. Ideally, if the cap mechanic is implemented through liaison communication, then the desired cap should be part of the conversation you have with the liaison, who should tell you, in an explicit disclaimer, that you may get migrants until word spreads that you've reached your cap. |
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"I didn't 'dig in', but I doubt that would make a difference." -- kwieland
From analysis I've done on the migrant code (both in 0.23 and 0.34), "digging in" does have an effect on how many migrants you can get - the game counts subterranean walkable non-feature tiles, and that count is divided by various numbers to determine how many migrants of each profession can arrive (in addition to the variety of jobs you've performed). Of course, I'm not sure if that logic is still fully respected given that it always tries to use historical migrants... |
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I'm happy to report that as of 40.1, this appears fixed. Maybe others could verify?
Steps used:
1. Change pop cap from 200 to 30
2. Started brand new fort, ensuring that enough tiles were mined and wealth generated throughout the year
3. Population hit mid-20s by the end of the year
4. A Spring migration wave brought us to 30 exactly
5. No migrants in the summer
6. In the early fall I purposefully killed 5 dwarves. A child was also born
7. In the late fall we received another migrant wave, bringing the total up to 31 (30 migrants + 1 fortress born)
8. Played until the following summer without any deaths. No new migrants came |
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(0026785)
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int_ua
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2014-07-17 15:51
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Not fixed for me.
I still have migrant waves right after dwarven caravan in 0.40.03
Cap 100, just got second wave after reaching it, before this wave I had 116 dwarves already. |
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I'll do some testing later this weekend to nail this one down. In previous versions, my test would fail - you were almost guaranteed to have 0000055:0000040 dwarves by the start of year 3, even if you have a 30 dwarf cap |
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I am seeing this bug in 40.03. My cap is 60, and I've gotten many small migrant waves since exceeding the cap. |
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Still broken in 40.3. I want my cap to be 7 so as to exclude all migrants (trying stupid dwarf challenges), and yet still they come. |
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0.40.4, pop cap set to 0, and still getting migrants. |
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Right, it hasn't been fixed yet. You're still gonna get the problem until Toady fixes it. No need to add a comment just to say it hasn't been fixed. Some bugs are going to be, and have been, around a long time. |
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I've tried to make this a little more useful, and it should control migrant waves now, to the point of preventing families that are too large from coming and also stopping generated families from bringing children and so on. Monarch arrival can still break the cap, but that should be an isolated event. I also added another cap that will stop fort births from violating the cap, and set the defaults to 200/220. |
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