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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0003106Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Militarypublic2010-08-25 13:142011-10-13 22:59
ReporterKhift 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeveritymajorReproducibilityhave not tried
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformPCOSWindows VistaOS Version
Product Version0.31.12 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.31.25 
Summary0003106: Marksdwarves cannot equip ammunition stored in bins
DescriptionTitle says it all: If a piece of ammo is stored in a bin, it is treated as though it does not exist by marksdwarves.
Steps To ReproduceMake an ammo stockpile large enough to hold all of your ammunition with enough bins to store all of it. Ensure that all of the ammo makes it into bins. Form a squad of marksdwarves, give them all necessary equipment, assign ammo you have plenty of and set them to train. Observe the marksdwarves as they wander around your fort with Soldier (Cannot follow order) and no ammunition in their quivers. Set a workshop to produce new ammo and watch your whole squad rush to it to equip the fresh bolts.

I have not tried to reproduce this yet due to how much of a pain it was to fix in the first place. Mass dumping the ammo stockpile then unforbidding the dumped bolts resulted in thousands of dump and haul jobs and I just don't want to do that again; better to test it on a smaller scale, IMO.
Additional InformationI can't rule out other factors contributing to this issue; marksdwarves are still very buggy in this release. It could, for example, have something to do with the fact that I had specific ammo assignments (150 metal, 100 bone) and they may just ignore bins that don't contain just metal and just bone bolts.

Finally, I do apologize if this issue has been reported before. I searched and found many reports about marksdwarves and ammunition, but none about this issue in specific.
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
child of 0001374new  If squad is assigned multiple ammo types, dwarves with "individual choice ranged" carry wrong ammo, and other ammo bugs 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2010-08-25 13:14KhiftNew Issue
2010-08-25 14:11QuietustNote Added: 0012087
2010-08-25 15:33FootkerchiefRelationship addedchild of 0000535
2010-08-26 08:53kwielandNote Added: 0012092
2010-08-26 08:53kwielandIssue Monitored: kwieland
2010-08-26 11:09KhiftNote Added: 0012094
2010-08-27 04:56kwielandNote Added: 0012147
2010-08-27 04:56kwielandNote Edited: 0012092bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012092#r4723
2010-08-27 08:17KhiftNote Added: 0012151
2010-08-27 09:02KhiftNote Edited: 0012151bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012151#r4727
2010-08-27 15:50kwielandNote Added: 0012178
2010-08-27 16:29kwielandNote Edited: 0012178bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012178#r4736
2010-08-27 16:43kwielandNote Edited: 0012178bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012178#r4737
2010-08-28 05:33DawideIssue Monitored: Dawide
2010-08-29 08:51tiefblauNote Added: 0012228
2010-08-29 10:25tiefblauNote Edited: 0012228bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012228#r4755
2010-08-29 10:26tiefblauNote Edited: 0012228bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012228#r4756
2010-08-29 12:04QuietustNote Added: 0012231
2010-08-29 12:05QuietustNote Edited: 0012231bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012231#r4758
2010-08-30 06:52kwielandNote Added: 0012259
2010-08-30 09:16tiefblauNote Added: 0012263
2010-08-30 09:53tiefblauNote Edited: 0012263bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012263#r4769
2010-08-30 14:51QuietustNote Added: 0012270
2010-08-30 18:51kwielandNote Added: 0012277
2010-08-30 19:17KhiftNote Added: 0012278
2010-08-31 07:58KhiftNote Edited: 0012278bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0012278#r4771
2010-08-31 18:40tiefblauNote Added: 0012290
2010-08-31 18:42tiefblauIssue Monitored: tiefblau
2010-08-31 20:20kwielandNote Added: 0012292
2010-08-31 20:39KhiftNote Added: 0012297
2010-09-01 16:53KhiftNote Added: 0012315
2010-09-01 17:13kwielandNote Added: 0012316
2010-11-11 10:58Khym ChanurIssue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2011-02-21 06:30CatyrpeliusIssue Monitored: Catyrpelius
2011-02-28 21:02FootkerchiefRelationship addedchild of 0001374
2011-02-28 21:03FootkerchiefRelationship deletedchild of 0000535
2011-02-28 21:04FootkerchiefNote Added: 0015614
2011-02-28 21:05FootkerchiefTag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-03-01 13:52MercurioNote Added: 0015635
2011-03-01 14:24KumquatNote Added: 0015644
2011-03-02 04:31MercurioNote Added: 0015664
2011-03-02 04:45Hieronymous AlloyIssue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2011-03-02 04:45Hieronymous AlloyIssue End Monitor: Hieronymous Alloy
2011-03-02 08:02FootkerchiefIssue Monitored: Mercurio
2011-03-02 08:02FootkerchiefNote Added: 0015673
2011-04-23 03:43KogutNote Added: 0017476
2011-04-23 03:43KogutNote Edited: 0017476bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0017476#r6499
2011-04-23 03:43KogutTag Attached: CLOSE THIS
2011-04-23 04:45KogutIssue Monitored: Kogut
2011-04-26 10:57kwielandNote Added: 0017524
2011-05-07 13:49FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0004605
2011-05-07 13:49FootkerchiefRelationship deletedrelated to 0004605
2011-05-07 13:51FootkerchiefStatusnew => resolved
2011-05-07 13:51FootkerchiefFixed in Version => 0.31.25
2011-05-07 13:51FootkerchiefResolutionopen => fixed
2011-05-07 13:51FootkerchiefAssigned To => Toady One
2011-05-07 13:51FootkerchiefTag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-05-07 13:51FootkerchiefTag Detached: CLOSE THIS
2011-05-08 19:58kwielandIssue End Monitor: kwieland
2011-10-13 22:59KogutIssue End Monitor: Kogut

Notes
(0012087)
Quietust   
2010-08-25 14:11   
Maybe related to 0002961?
(0012092)
kwieland   
2010-08-26 08:53   
(edited on: 2010-08-27 04:56)
I cannot reproduce this. I followed your instructions in a well established (8 years old) fort.

I started by disbanding my entire military, all the squads. I had a stockpile with lots of bolts (>1000?), all in bins, and I didn't make or acquire anymore while testing. I formed a squad of all marksdwarves. I then assigned them bolts, with bones for training and metal for combat. Did you activate the squad to a training schedule or leave it inactive? Were burrows involved? I prefer not to use burrows. My squad was set to inactive. In almost 10 game days, the markdwarfs started practicing on their own. Non-active training seem the least bugged at the moment.

I have seen Soldier (Cannot follow order) before. I think it might be due to how the game calculates the equipment assignments. If the equipment hasn't been assigned yet, then they get this, marksdwarf or otherwise.
(0012094)
Khift   
2010-08-26 11:09   
It's possible that they only ignore bins which contain bolts of more than one category. I do remember when I encountered this they did initially train just fine; it was about a season or two in-game that I noticed that the entire squad was under Soldier (Cannot follow order) and all of their quivers were empty despite having thousands of bolts available.

It could also be something else entirely. After mass dumping the stockpile I did get them to start training again, but I still have half of my marksdwarves under Soldier (Cannot follow order) at any given time. I have 20 marksdwarves in this fort; at any given time 14 will be active and 6 will be off duty. Of the active dwarves, somewhere between 6 and 8 will have Soldier (Cannot follow order), 3-4 will have other jobs (pickup equipment, fill waterskin, etc) and the final 3-4 will be at Archery Practice or heading to it. If the broken bolts on the floor are any indicator every single archery target I've designated has been used at least once, so that's not the issue, and all of the equipment assignments are proper and functioning, I have plenty of ammo and quivers and 20 open archery targets for them to use.

I really couldn't begin to guess what exactly is going on here and whether the two bheaviors are related or even the same bug, but something is definitely majorly wrong with marksdwarves at the moment.
(0012147)
kwieland   
2010-08-27 04:56   
So, I tried activating the squad. All 10 of them went to Soldier (Cannot follow order). I looked and I had assigned the squad arrows as well as bolts (in case some of them picked up bows). I looked in the ammunitions assignments (M-F) and for some reason all 10 dwarfs were assigned arrows. Using the stocks menu I dumped them and also removed them from the ammunitions assignment. (I also made another squad that only uses arrows). Once I took them off active duty, they go and train fine. I only have 3-4 training at a time. I'll let you know what happens when I activate the squad.

In your case, Khift, if you make a bolt stockpile without any bins, do they all train or do you get the same Soldier (Cannot follow order)? How many munitions are you assigning the squad? Are there hunters involved?
(0012151)
Khift   
2010-08-27 08:17   
(edited on: 2010-08-27 09:02)
I still get multiple incidences of Soldier (Cannot follow order); about half the active squad will have it at any given point. No hunters are present (they all died out, no new migrants due to population cap to replenish them), and I've assigned 250 bolts to the squad.

Is the bolt assignment per person, or for the whole squad, by the way? If it's for the whole squad then 250 bolts is definitely not enough and that would explain a lot of this behavior. I've always assumed it was 250 bolts per dwarf, though, which should be enough.

Edit: This picture accurately sums up my marksdwarves:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/Khift/brokenmarksdwarves.jpg [^]
(0012178)
kwieland   
2010-08-27 15:50   
(edited on: 2010-08-27 16:43)
I think the number is the total per squad, not per dwarf. I've tried making multiple bolt assignments, but it seems that only the bottom one ever has items assigned out of it.

If you look in the munitions page, you can see what items are currently assigned to dwarfs, they have a green check next to it. I have noticed that dwarfs will at most take five stacks.

I also have noticed some strange "equipment mismatch" errors. Do you get those at all? I notice it when a dwarf is done shooting his stack of 5. It generates that error and then the dwarf goes and picks up a stack of bolts.

I originally thought it was from a carpenter wanting to equip an ax but still having a crossbow. The dwarf will not train like this inactively, though. Once you remove the wood cutter skill, then they will train and not generate the error.

Then I noticed the error on farmer. What gives, right? Not miner, not woodcutter, not hunter... why the equipment mismatch?

EDT: I started a new embark - only bolts and ambushers (and booze). I cut down some trees and then built 7 archery targets. I made a new squad, archers, and in the munitions the squad automatically was assigned 250 bolts. Of these, 35 bunches was assigned to the dwarfs. Since they were hunters, they had 100 bolts allocated which I deleted. Inactive, only a few will practice at a time. I activated the squad and they promptly exhausted all the assigned bolts, at which point they got the "cannot follow orders". I still had all the bolts that they had dropped. I tried inactivating the squad and activating it, but they still didn't have any bolts assigned to them. So it didn't work. Once I designated a spot for the bolts to be stockpiled, they were immediately assigned to the squad.

So "Cannot follow orders" for marksdwarfs means they cannot practice due to not having any bolts assigned. Why are the bolts not being assigned? Dunno!

Also, a hint. If you simply make a new stockpile, and then disable the bolt from being stored in the other stockpile the dwarfs will take the bolts from the old stockpile to the new stockpile. No need to dump and claim.
(0012228)
tiefblau   
2010-08-29 08:51   
(edited on: 2010-08-29 10:26)
I am also experiencing a lot of "Soldier can't follow order" from my single Marksdwarf. I only made one to observe this problem, and so far I have found no fix other than waiting for the Dwarf to sleep/eat/drink, then it seems he'll fix himself to practice again.

However, I did isolate one cause of this problem. This problem mostly happens when my Marksdwarf have reached a new level in Marksmanship. I have reproduced this 3 times now, and all 3 times he have just reached a new level of marksmanship (observed using Dwarf Therapist). Also, it's always whenever the marksdwarf picks up his ammunition from the pile, then he just stands in the range not knowing what to do (the wooden arrows I assigned was in the quiver already)...

Have not tried to reproduce the bolts in bin scenario.
(0012231)
Quietust   
2010-08-29 12:04   
(edited on: 2010-08-29 12:05)
All of my bone bolts are stored in bins, and my marksdwarves don't seem to have any trouble using them for practice. They do, however, frequently cancel Pickup Equipment with "Equipment mismatch" even though they're all using crossbows and I've only allocated bone bolts for them in the Military menu, and they continue to practice just fine.
(0012259)
kwieland   
2010-08-30 06:52   
Quietust, Do you have a large (10) squad, or a smaller squad? Are your squads training actively or while inactive? Do you ever see any more than 5-6 training at a time?

I've noticed the same thing with the Equipment mismatch. Maybe that is the real bug here? Are there pseudo-slots in the quiver that are reporting being full so they cannot pick up further bolts? I've seen a quiver with 5 bunches of bolts (5 bolts/bunch) in it, but while they are training the most I've seen is 3. Why wouldn't they fill their quiver up to 5 bunches? What about your active dwarfs, Khift? Do they fill their quivers up?
(0012263)
tiefblau   
2010-08-30 09:16   
(edited on: 2010-08-30 09:53)
Maybe a good fix for this will be making the archery targets attackable like a dummy, but with a lot of damage durability? Now I have 4 marksdwarves and only one practice shooting at my 4 archery targets at a time, they take turns to do this in training. However, when I order them to go kill wild games they all rush to kill with the bolts that are already in their quiver.

Quietust, is it possible for you to upload a screenshot of your archery range and ammo assignment page? It's getting really frustrating how these dwarfs keeps on getting soldier can't follow orders when they already have archery range and bolts in their quivers. Thanks in advance!
(0012270)
Quietust   
2010-08-30 14:51   
I've only got 3 marksdwarves in the squad, and the Ammo page has "bone bolts (500) CT", "wooden bolts (500) CT", and "metal bolts (500)" assigned to the squad. I've got 4 archery targets declared as separate (but partially overlapping) rooms and have enabled T+I+Q for my archer squad on all of them. I generally only see 1 or 2 training at any given moment, but they train both when active and inactive.
(0012277)
kwieland   
2010-08-30 18:51   
tiefblau,
Here is the easy way. First, un-assign all your hunters. They screw up the military equipment/assignments.

Make a new squad with the archer's uniform. Make sure that that particular squad has bolts assigned to them. Build some archery targets and make sure the archery targets are at least T for that squad (I haven't seen much effect of the I+Q). If you don't activate them, they will train every so often.
(0012278)
Khift   
2010-08-30 19:17   
(edited on: 2010-08-31 07:58)
Okay, for the last two days I've been trying to reproduce this; repeat the same conditions in the same save to see if the total lockup occurred again. Unfortunately, I seem to have encountered an entirely new bug that caused my marksdwarves to stand around with Going To Archery Practice as their current job, but not actually going anywhere or doing anything. After a year of waiting for them to shake it off I disbanded and reformed the squads and they now seem to be at least moving; now to wait and see if they lock up when the loose bolts run out again.

Kwieland: Yeah, when they're actually training they do spam Equipment Mismatch a ton. Also whenever I looked the dwarves only had one group of bolts in their quiver at a time; I can't say I performed a comprehensive study on them because I only checked every once in a while when I thought to, but every time I did look in they either had one group of bolts or none at all.

Edit: Scratch that, it didn't fix anything at all. I suppose that's it for my marksdwarves this fortress, then. They just stand there, rooted in place for months at a time with "Going to Archery Practice" as their job. They don't even rotate out for breaks like their schedule should, so some of them are already beginning to tantrum over long patrol times. Great.
(0012290)
tiefblau   
2010-08-31 18:40   
Hmm it seems they are practicing lot more now with multiple separate ranges all assigned to Training and with no hunter at all. Nevertheless, they still get this bug from time to time, I see 2-4 out of 5 of my Marksdwarves practicing at a time with all the others doing "Soldier can't follow orders". I am starting to think that this bug with marksdwarves not training is due to ammo assignment. I have never got Equipment mismatch bug ever though, maybe because I only have 1 squad of marksdwarves so they have all the bolts.

Thanks for the help kwieland and Quietust.
(0012292)
kwieland   
2010-08-31 20:20   
Khift, are you sure they don't have a burrow assigned or something? Have you tried multiple archery targets? Made sure the targets are not forbidden? I have 2 squads with 10 dwarfs in each. each of my 8 targets has both squads assigned to train there. Both squads also have 600 bone bolts assigned with CT (though I've yet to do any real combat, so it shouldn't matter).

As an asside, I've found that a schedule with train/off/train/off the dwarfs all complain about being on a long patrol. If you want to get rid of that, you need to specify that only 7/10 or so of the dwarfs train at a time. Q, is that what you've found?
(0012297)
Khift   
2010-08-31 20:39   
Kwieland: I am sure that they aren't personally assigned to a burrow, although I do have many burrows. I have multiple archery targets (20 total, so one per marksdwarves) and each is designated as it's own archery range with the appropriate squad set to train at each target. The targets aren't forbidden; they've all been used at one point or another. As for the aside, yeah I've definitely noticed that too. I have my 4 dwarf squads (melee training, sparring heavy) set to train 2 at a time (3 inspires minor long patrol thoughts) and my 10 dwarf marksdwarf squads set at 7 at a time. It didn't help with the bug I'm currently dealing with, though, because they never rotated out for nearly a whole year.

I'm currently waiting a little bit longer with my unhappy marksdwarves on "shore leave" with no labors enabled so they can wander around the fort getting happy thoughts from the solid gold furniture and legendary dining halls. Once we're fully out of range of the tantrum spiral I nearly incited I'll reactivate them and see if I can't understand some more about this bug I'm currently dealing with. I am positive it has something to do with equipment because the various dwarves froze in place right on top of stockpiles of clothes / armor and only had half their equipment on (roughly). If I activate the squad and the bug happens again a third time, I'll make a new report and this time will take a save.

In other news, it appears that someone on the DF forums hit the same bug I did here. At least, the same effect -- marksdwarves standing around with Soldier (Cannot follow order) and no bolts in their possession despite having plenty of bolts to equip. His situation didn't involve bins, though, but it appears to be the same bug where no bolts are being assigned. He was kind enough to provide a save, although I haven't looked at it yet because it's the middle of the night. Tomorrow I'll load it and see if it looks like the same thing. Here's the thread:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=65106.0 [^]
(0012315)
Khift   
2010-09-01 16:53   
Alrighty, so I was not able to reproduce the Soldier (Cannot follow orders) lockup with ChopperDave's save. I did observe the temporary Soldier (Cannot follow orders) that occurred for a significant period of time after using up all of his ammunition like Kwieland noticed and like I've seen in my own game, but I'm guessing that is universal and a different bug in it's own right.

On my own save, reactivating my marksdwarf squads resulted in the same situation it had twice before; most of the dwarves are now frozen in place half equipped with 'Go to Archery Practice' as their listed job. Last time they stood still for a year straight before I disbanded those squads, so I don't expect waiting will have any effect. I did keep a save this time. To get to the question, should I document this new bug here, or start a new bug report? It's the same subject, but I don't think it has anything to do with the original report on no ammunition being assigned resulting in mass Soldier (Cannot follow orders).
(0012316)
kwieland   
2010-09-01 17:13   
Probably start a new bug report. Do you think the new bug has anything to do with multiple squads? If you have the save, try disbanding the entire military, exit, and then restart? I think exiting sometimes forces DF to clean up some loose ends.
(0015614)
Footkerchief   
2011-02-28 21:04   
Reminder sent to: Khift

What's the current status of this bug? Is there a save available?
(0015635)
Mercurio   
2011-03-01 13:52   
In my forts, they use ammo stored in bins, however the "Cannot follow orders" bug happens after every shooting session.

Now as soon as a craftsdwarves workshop churns out some bolts, they immediately go to the stockpile to get the freshly produced stack (whether it be in bins or on the floor doesnt matter), shoot it at some targets and then go idling in the meeting hall again.
(0015644)
Kumquat   
2011-03-01 14:24   
I have seen this kind of behavior.

Usually it was because all the existing ammo was allocated for hunters.
(0015664)
Mercurio   
2011-03-02 04:31   
I had not ONE hunter activated on my map, also I deleted all hunter ammo assignments, I even dumped and forbid all of the foreign goblin arrows that accumulated over a bunch of sieges. I still try finding a solution, currently playing around with some schedule and barracks settings ._.
(0015673)
Footkerchief   
2011-03-02 08:02   
Reminder sent to: Mercurio

This problem is more likely to get fixed if you upload a save demonstrating the problem to http://dffd.wimbli.com/ [^]
(0017476)
Kogut   
2011-04-23 03:43   
fixed in .25 (or before)
(0017524)
kwieland   
2011-04-26 10:57   
I also have not seen this bug v.25