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Notes |
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nevermind, just noticed that this is in the wiki...should probably be fixed but, ok, understand. |
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Presumably you mean it was a wetlands biome? |
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...no...it wasn't a wetlands. It was a temperate forest, I think. Now, I will say it was within one region tile of being in the ocean and I got a warning that it was salt water. HOWEVER, the stream was a water source before it got channeled into a murky pool. I may reclaim that fort or embark in the next tile just to see what the water there looks like and provide more context and !!RESEARCH!! |
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It might be a good idea to look at the map again and make sure that you remember correctly.
That said, since it sounds like it was a river that got emptied into a murky pool, that appears to be expected behaviour. Thus, for now I'll resolve this report with "No change required" but you will be able to reopen it later if there's a problem or you discover additional information. |
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Reopening due to corroboration in 0005239. I think I also saw corroboration on the forums somewhere. |
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Indeed I have the same situation (that's why I posted the bug report). It may be just my luck, but every river I had so far had stagnant water. Both in fortress and adventurer mode. |
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ok I just reembarked in a new spot (with v 0.34.02, the new Feb 17 '12 release) ...I have a brook and MANY stagnant pools...
The brook is a drinking source...I've not yet punched one of the murky pools to test this because...darnit...I like being able to play and this is a great location. So I'm going to do my !!research!! here after I get a huge cistern filled :-)
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LOL and my two miners just got caught in an unfortunate cave-in...so now I have the doctor and a new migrant busy learning how to swing a pickaxe trying like heck to get enough dining/living space carved out so I don't have a tantrum spiral! :-P |
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My brook slowly got infected, even though it was flowing from bottom to top of the map. Hello infections. |
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(0020647)
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jriesen
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2012-02-25 03:57
(edited on: 2012-02-25 04:00) |
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From my personal tests, it seems like the stagnation starts in brooks/streams/rivers anywhere that a murky pool and the river share a wall. I can definitely vouch that no digging occurred; it's a brand new embark, not in wetlands but instead temperate grassland. The contamination doesn't always seem to spread quickly; it looks like removing water (whether by bucket for pond fill or actually pumping it out) seems to cause flow (independent of the 'current' direction of the river) and contamination spreads in the direction the water has been removed.
I don't know for sure that it's the river bordering on a murky pool wall, but on two maps now, the stagnation seems localized right next to those murky pools immediately adjacent (but not open to!) the river. I suspect the walls of murky pools are somehow 'hot' and transmit stagnation to the river. (What's interesting, though, and possibly contradictory, is that my test cisterns placed up against the river itself don't get contaminated in this fashion. This may be because the rivers use special optimizations to model 'flow' without using the full fluid model?)
EDIT: Also, there's no reason to abandon your fort! Just dig out a cistern - and no, it doesn't need constructed walls or anything - and pump water into it via Screw Pump from any stagnant source. As long as no water leaks around to touch a stagnant source, the cistern remains uncontaminated. At least it remained non-stagnant for several months, with only a 1-tile wall separating it from the completely-stagnated river.
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I too noticed this, thought the wall sharing thing was intended |
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(0021024)
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Xotano
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2012-03-03 07:15
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yea this needs to be fixed somehow, hopefully in one of the upcoming releases. i noticed my brook was stagnant far too late to fix the problem and my dwarfs all died and went insane and then one broke my well and for some reason my base flooded when he did tho it was only 1 z level lower then the water, and from the testing i did with water in the arena and other fortresses the water stops 1z level below the highest point in most cases. |
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Why would stagnation spread to running water in the first place? Shouldn't it be the other way around? |
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Agreed. But, as far as we can tell, "stagnation" seems to mean "nasty contaminated water", and contamination can spread, and it doesn't just go away because the water is moving. At the same time, it does seem a little odd that it isn't 'diluted' with distance and basically spreads like a plague, and there's no way to 'disinfect' a tile *ever*. |
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There is a problem if contamination of the water supply flows upstream, however.
Also, it can be crippling in Adventure Mode, when you can't find any non-stagnant water source in the water, and can't drink stagnant water. You can, oddly, step into a stream and then drink the moisture on your chest and stomach, which is a bit of a buggy workaround that probably shouldn't exist, either. |
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Holy christ...
I've now lost this fort THREE TIMES because I can't get clean water.
I have THREE HUGE CISTERNS ALL OVERFLOWING WITH STAGNANT WATER...TWO OF THEM AFTER PASSING THROUGH SCREW PUMPS.
All of the water in the brook is stagnant...all of the water in my cistern is stagnant...all of the water ON THE MAP is stagnant.
This is an INTENSELY annoying bug. I have to start over somewhere else...I've given up all the space below my living area to cisterns that are now FULL of stagnant water.
SUCKS!
Update: I've figured out how to work around this and, incidentally, it goes back to making a better fort design to begin with...but, man oh man, stagnant water is TOUGH to handle! :-\
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I can also confirm this. I made a canal that became stagnant from being one tile from a stagnant pool (which had already been drained elsewhere, btw).
The canal got water from the river via screw pump and was not connected to the river directly, so the rivier was not immediately contaminated. So I dried out the canal and built a stone floor over it, figuring maybe the floor tiles become contaminated; and I mined out the old pool that was drained until there were no "stagnant pool" tiles. That did not cure the canal, and when it overflowed slightly the river also became stagnant. I guess I could have tried building walls in the canal and the former pool. But it seems that once stagnant water touches a tile it's no good. Maybe I can sanitize them with magma? :) |
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(0021680)
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krenshala
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2012-03-23 12:25
(edited on: 2012-03-23 16:12) |
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I've got a stream next to a murky pool (shared wall) in 34.05. I'll check that later today and report what I find. I can't remember what biome I'm in, but I have that written down, so I'll add it as well.
[edit] *a few hours later* My embark (founded spring 251) is in Shrubland, with a stream (shown as a river when loo[k]ing at it) running north to south. In the center of my embark there is murky pool just west of the stream.
I have not dug into any of the pools or the river (yet), and my fortress is on the east bank of the river, with no bridges, so it isn't a case of my fisherdwarf standing between the pool and river causing the contamination.
Checking my most current save: Summer 252
For 13 tiles south of the murky pool of stagnant water, the river is listed as "stagnant water 7/7". the 14th tile is listed as "water 7/7". All of the water in the river from that point south is "water". For 12 tiles north of the murky pool, the river is listed as "stagnant water 7/7", while the 13th tile north is listed as "water 7/7". In both cases the "stangant" portion is all the same horizontally, with a clear "from here (N or S) is stagnant".
I checked random tiles on each horizontal row (5x5 embark), and while there is another murky pool adjacent to the river, the other pool has two solid tiles (damp peat walls) next to it, and non-stagnant river water. The affected area is a single row of damp clay loam walls.
Checking an older save: Winter 251 (~ six months previous)
The top row of tiles even with the top of the murky pool is listed as "water 7/7", but the next row down is listed as "stagnant water 7/7". This is an obvious difference from Summer 252. That top row of stagnant water also only affects 3 of the 4 tiles of water, with the one farthest from the pool being listed as "water 7/7". For 5 tiles south of the pool the river is listed as "stagnant water 7/7", or half what it shows in summer 252. The next row south is stagnant on the west half, normal on the east (4 tiles wide). The 7th row is only stagnant in the farthest west tile (1 of 4).
If needed I can post a couple saves, as I have seasonal saves enabled at the moment.
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(0021690)
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d64
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2012-03-24 05:01
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Interestingly enough, a channel made from a stagnant pool to the brook 5 tiles away will just make a short section of the brook stagnant. Maybe 10 tiles in each direction of the channel. |
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My 0.34.06 fortress (just started) shows the same stagnant water contamination. |
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(0021719)
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guebstrike
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2012-03-25 16:14
(edited on: 2012-03-25 16:53) |
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I've recently observed quite a bit of behavior related to this bug. In this .06 fort: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6002 [^] three stagnant areas of the brook quickly appeared. Interestingly, you can spot them without even looking below the surface of the water. The three areas are accompanied by pairs of tiles of silty clay loam, which in this DIY Mayday version are the only red tiles on the surface. I doubt this is caused by fishing dwarves, since this is a new fort and I don't think they've traveled that far from their starting location...but I could be wrong. I originally thought that a lot of this contamination may be caused by wet frogs and toads jumping from a stagnant pool to a clean pool. Now I think it must be some sort of secret invisible stagnant river vampire yeti, only identifiable by its tracks >:) Note that one of the sections of stagnant river is not adjacent to a stagnant pool, but also has a pair of silt clay loam tiles, and is also in the forest.
Additionally, the whole stream, and the forts well, become stagnant, but *only after the first freeze*.
I also observed in a .05 fort in which parallel channels of stagnant water and clean water didn't infect the clean water, but in a nearby biome downstream, in the forest, where there were lots of toads, the brook was stagnant. However, as far as I can tell, since the water near that fort never froze, the stagnant water never spread upstream.
Also, this has nothing to do with pumping water, I usually dig simple wells that require no pumps.
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(0021720)
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slink
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2012-03-25 17:41
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I have a map where the brook enters and exits the map stagnant, and is stagnant adjacent to four out of five murky pools but not next to the fifth. It is not stagnant where my one of my two fortress walls passes over the brook, nor adjacent to that wall. It was not stagnant to begin with, when I filled my reservoir and built my well, but the well is unusable now. My fishermen will also no longer fish in the stagnant portion of the river. Everyone is ignoring the drinking and fishing zones. This is in year 3.
Year 1: Brook stagnant only in 8 tiles adjacent to two murky pools not far from brook source.
Year 2: Brook stagnant from reservoir tap on down, and nearby the two pools mentioned above. Brook source is now stagnant, but the contamination has not spreaf far downstream from there. The biggest problem in this year appears to be where I tapped the brook for my reservoir.
This fortress was built in a world generated in 34.06. Ports of three other fortresses from 34.05 don't seem to have the same problem with my reservoir, at least not in their first year.
Joke: Maybe the 34.06 Dwarves are secretly peeing, as many have requested on the forum in the past, in the water. |
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(0021843)
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Kijiro
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2012-03-28 13:52
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Confirmed in the latest version 34.06.
I never paid attention to the fact that the pools of water are stagnant. I channeled the water from the brook near the fort over to the pool, then channeled that into a well.
Now all the water in the brook and the well is stagnant. I guess I assumed the flowing water from the brook would de-stagnate the water in the pool. The opposite happened and now everything is fouled. :(
I dont know if the brook water was already stagnant, but it certainly is now. When I embark on a new location later today I will add details about the brook/stream, what is stagnant, and when changes occur, if any. I will also supply a save. |
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I started a new embark, paused. The brook was full of fresh water, apart from where it was seperated from a murky pool by only one tile of wall. The brook squares next to the wall were also stagnant. I used the step advance, and the stagnation spreads in all directions every couple of ticks.
I hope this is a bug and not desired behaviour, because it makes starting on a river a bit of pot luck as to whether it'll be usable or not. |
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The problem happens whenever murky pools are placed in a particular location and then a river/brook is placed on top of those tiles - the murky pool placement flags them as stagnant, but the river placement fails to undo it.
This also results in the murky pool walls against the river not having any ramps. |
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Stagnant water is extremely persistent!
I've managed to fix it on the latest fort by building a 4 pump stack to move stagnant water to a floored and walled 3-level, 15x15 cistern. After a recent modification to add floors, my bottom pump started spewing stagnant water but the other pumps are still clean. All I can say is...you can never have enough screw pumps to clean water...and, for armok's sake, install them once and NEVER TOUCH THEM AGAIN. Having dwarves do anything in the outlet square seems to render the water stagnant again. |
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I assume it's cause Pump stacks and Cisterns MOSTLY solve this problem (and Aquifers? the whole layer can't become stagnant unless the how layers dug out somehow right?), but why is this marked as Low this seems Medium at least. |
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About the only way around this that I've found so far is to use dfhack to remove all stagnant water from the entire map - but we shouldn't have to do that? |
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(0022136)
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Kijiro
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2012-04-06 15:26
(edited on: 2012-04-06 15:27) |
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(0022239)
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revlob
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2012-04-12 06:46
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Started a new embark, river and pools on map were frozen. A few days later it thawed, and all water on the map was instantly stagnated. |
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(0022256)
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Doren
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2012-04-14 03:57
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I think its not low but medium or high priority bug. |
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@ Doren - the priority field doesn't mean anything. It isn't used for fixing bugs or anything. Pretty much ignore it. |
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(0022376)
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Dekon
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2012-04-25 07:10
(edited on: 2012-04-25 07:39) |
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Since, even though it's understood, there's no real good explanation that I'm seeing in the comments, I'll toss up what I've seen/been told by others.
Tiles have hidden flags, and one of those hidden flags is stagnant or not - just like salty or not. Once a tile is flagged as stagnant, by having even touched the wall of water that's stagnant, it is stagnant FOREVER.
Unfortunately, this is true with any minor mistake you might make in releasing the stagnant water of murky pools. If a murky pool is mined out and allowed to release stagnant water across other tiles, even if only 1/7 depth touches any tile in your fortress, that tile is forever and irreversibly stagnant.
I just spent up a lot of time setting up a giant waterway only to discover this :(. Even if you floor/wall the entire path with marble blocks, if the tile's flagged, all the water will stagnate, and yes - if it's touching a river, that's gone too.
Footkerchief, if there was a bug recently to ask Toady to take an hour to fix.. this would be it.
EDIT: Apparently WClean in Liquids in DFhack CAN fix this - you just have to make sure you clean absolutely every tile that would even touch the wall of anything you're making.
So if it's a river, you're going to have to clean every single river tile, every single water tile touching the river, and every single surrounding tile around the river. Drain any stagnant pools that touch the river by 1 wall and add an extra wall surrounding them before you wclean. You have to be incredibly, painstakingly thorough for this to work, as if any tile is left with the stagnant flag, the whole thing goes.
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Confirming all my water including the brook turned stagnant in 0.34.07
Drained all my waterworks and pumped in water from the brook. Still stagnant. |
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This behaviour can be triggered even without any external water source or "contamination". It often shows when using the rectacting-bridge-and-ramps-from-underneath method for draining rivers and lakes, but before any actual connection to the body of water is made. Assume the brook is located at level -1. Dig underneath it at level -3. Then designate some up-ramps at this level. This will create up-ramps at level -3 and open space (displayed as downward slope) at level -2. The brook above it should change to stagnant, with 10-15 tiles upstream affected. The effect is usually triggered in chunks, by digging certain tiles, so may not be evident immediately. Even the "River source" tile can be converted to stagnant that way.
If I may add - the whole "stagnant water" mechanic is so broken now that it would be feasible to abandon it completely for now, just like economy. And restore it when the bugs are dealt with. |
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