Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker - Dwarf Fortress
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0005263Dwarf FortressAdventure Mode -- Townpublic2012-02-18 08:592015-12-16 04:44
ReporterNW_Kohaku 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeveritymajorReproducibilitysometimes
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.34.01 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.42.04 
Summary0005263: Population crashes in human towns
DescriptionIn testing out the new version's adventure mode as well as an updated custom race for the new version at the same time, I started my adventuring career in the outskirts of a major human city.

When trying to enter some of the buildings, most were abandoned. When I went exploring, I came across a building jam-packed with tables, and then my framerate plummetted when I tried to investigate.

There were no people, even though a quick check in legends viewer said this was a city with 5000 humans, 500 dwarves, and several hundred domestic wildlife except for in the keep, which were a pair of notable figures - the population pool people just don't show up.

Meanwhile, half the rooms in all the buildings in town were wall-to-wall tables. Sometimes even spilling out of the walls or stacking tables on top of other items. Thousands and thousands of tables overflowing the world.

This was, I will point out, a 350-year-history world, since 1050 year worlds are too unreliable.
Steps To ReproduceJust gen the world and play as an adventurer.
Additional InformationSavegame with character inside of the town here - http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5586 [^]

I made a thread about it here, and heard others have the same problems - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=101446.0 [^]
Tags0.34.01, 34.01, city, civilization, towns, world generation, worldgen
Relationships
related to 0005052resolved Toady One Abandoned houses keep their cabinets and bags full of itens 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2012-02-18 08:59NW_KohakuNew Issue
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: 0.34.01
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: 34.01
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: city
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: civilization
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: towns
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: world generation
2012-02-18 10:07NW_KohakuTag Attached: worldgen
2012-02-19 11:32TrifNote Added: 0020147
2012-02-19 12:52QuietustNote Added: 0020159
2012-02-19 12:52QuietustNote Edited: 0020159bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020159#r7538
2012-02-19 17:33NW_KohakuNote Added: 0020198
2012-02-20 06:16Granite26Note Added: 0020255
2012-02-24 08:11NW_KohakuNote Added: 0020601
2012-02-24 08:15NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0020601bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020601#r7655
2012-02-24 08:32NW_KohakuNote Added: 0020605
2012-02-24 08:39NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0020605bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020605#r7660
2012-02-24 09:33Granite26Note Added: 0020608
2012-02-24 09:37FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0005052
2012-02-24 13:05NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0020605bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0020605#r7665
2012-03-05 07:51thvazNote Added: 0021107
2012-03-09 22:57NW_KohakuNote Added: 0021327
2012-03-09 22:59NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0021327bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0021327#r7944
2012-03-09 23:00NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0021327bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0021327#r7945
2012-03-10 00:33etherflanIssue Monitored: etherflan
2012-03-10 01:10thvazNote Added: 0021328
2012-03-10 01:10thvazIssue Monitored: thvaz
2012-03-10 18:14NW_KohakuNote Added: 0021346
2012-03-10 18:28NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0021346bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0021346#r7953
2012-03-10 18:49NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0021346bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0021346#r7954
2012-03-10 23:57NW_KohakuNote Edited: 0021346bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0021346#r7955
2012-03-23 05:01BuglistIssue Monitored: Buglist
2014-08-06 07:50FootkerchiefNote Added: 0028451
2014-08-06 07:50FootkerchiefStatusnew => resolved
2014-08-06 07:50FootkerchiefFixed in Version => 0.40.06
2014-08-06 07:50FootkerchiefResolutionopen => fixed
2014-08-06 07:50FootkerchiefAssigned To => Toady One
2014-08-06 12:40FootkerchiefAssigned ToToady One =>
2014-08-06 12:40FootkerchiefStatusresolved => new
2014-08-06 12:41FootkerchiefSummaryTowns have no residents in spite of Legends listing population in thousands - town overflowing with tables, instead => Population crashes in human towns
2014-08-06 13:41thvazNote Added: 0028485
2014-10-08 05:24NekoHatsuNote Added: 0030576
2014-10-08 05:34NekoHatsuNote Edited: 0030576bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0030576#r11989
2014-10-08 05:47NekoHatsuIssue Monitored: NekoHatsu
2014-10-08 07:47smjjamesNote Added: 0030577
2014-10-31 18:50lethosorResolutionfixed => open
2015-12-15 20:51Toady OneStatusnew => resolved
2015-12-15 20:51Toady OneFixed in Version0.40.06 => Next Version
2015-12-15 20:51Toady OneResolutionopen => fixed
2015-12-15 20:51Toady OneAssigned To => Toady One
2015-12-16 04:44thvazIssue End Monitor: thvaz
2016-06-20 12:35NekoHatsuIssue End Monitor: NekoHatsu

Notes
(0020147)
Trif   
2012-02-19 11:32   
I've experienced this bug in a 125-year-history world as well, only with people still in town and fewer rooms filled with tables. Table-filled rooms were never inhabited. http://i.imgur.com/MdtY7.png [^]
The travel map revealed that the table-filled rooms were abandoned shops. http://i.imgur.com/EEhQq.png [^]
Unfortunately, the shop signs were removed, therefore I suspected furniture shops that went out of business when the town stopped growing. To confirm this thesis, I regenned the world and started an adventurer 60 years in the past, when the town was 3 years old.

The shopping district was a lot smaller back then, but I managed to find some shops. None were abandoned, but most of them were in some stage of the table disease. http://i.imgur.com/MwPkA.png [^]
In a clothes shop, I could ask the shopkeeper to trade, but his side of the trading menu was empty. The tables that filled his shop did not appear as trading goods.
When I tried to steal one, I found out why: all tables were constructed.

The solution dawned to me when I looked at the goods in a food store: all of the bags were lying on tables, easily discernible from goods on the ground by their colored backgrounds. http://i.imgur.com/CWJO5.png [^]

The conclusion is as simple as that: goods in shops are sold on tables. When a shop is abandoned - maybe because the shopkeeper died, maybe economic reasons - the sign is removed and the tables remain. I can't explain the missing population, though.
(0020159)
Quietust   
2012-02-19 12:52   
Perhaps you've located the headquarters of the Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things?
(0020198)
NW_Kohaku   
2012-02-19 17:33   
Hmm... some of those shops were overwhelmed with tables. It's possible the shops were permanently abandoned when the tables completely overwhelmed them.

But then, I did find one regular shop, a gemcutter's, and it had gems sitting out on tables, but I couldn't find a shopkeeper, either.
(0020255)
Granite26   
2012-02-20 06:16   
Was it the full moon?
(0020601)
NW_Kohaku   
2012-02-24 08:11   
(edited on: 2012-02-24 08:15)
I notice this in every major town I enter in Adventure Mode.

The areas that are supposed to be the most busy rarely have anything but abandoned shops - apparently, the shops get so cluttered, they never even get re-occupied.

Only a few shops along the edges of the town are open, and the marketplace has its shopowners intact (but they're all meat stands). In a city that supposedly houses 2000, three non-marketplace shops exist, and only a half-dozen houses are actually occupied.

Ironically enough, I find the most people living on the parapets of the keep's outer bailey walls. Walking up on the parapets, I suddenly see all the farmers, children, and occasional actual soldier. These people all seemed to be historical figures, however, as they all could tell me about their past and family and worshipped the local fish goddess. Population pool people don't show up except in hamlets.

Nearly everything else is an abandoned shop - with only a few abandoned houses flung around.
(0020605)
NW_Kohaku   
2012-02-24 08:32   
(edited on: 2012-02-24 13:05)
I notice this seems to be related to vampires.

When a town becomes large enough to start having a sewer, vampires will move in and never leave, racking up kill counts in the thousands apiece. If they are over 600 years old, individual vampires will have kills in the tens of thousands. Because this city had a temple to a fish goddess, it seems that fish goddess went on a rampage vamping about thirty people for profaning her temple, each of which had thousands of kills, and kept the town on a path of constant decline.

They seem to have killed the shopkeepers with regularity, forcing the abandonment of the shops, which may have caused a high turnover in shop ownership, causing the table explosion.

This is also a likely reason for reports ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=102209.0 [^] ) of it being nearly impossible to find a full-sized city. Vampires infest the major cities and kill so many people that it is impossible for cities to ever grow past the point where vampires move in.

Here is another savegame for testing from .34.02: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5682 [^]

I made another report for the vampire thing: 0005432
(0020608)
Granite26   
2012-02-24 09:33   
Way less interesting then a bug that allows were-creatures to turn into inanimate objects instead of animals.
(0021107)
thvaz   
2012-03-05 07:51   
I have this problem with a town with almost 2000 residents - every single shop is abandoned, but the market isn't marked as abandoned (though here is no one there). Few houses are ruined (compared with an actual ruined city in the same world), though I couldn't notice overflowing of tables or any other time.
(0021327)
NW_Kohaku   
2012-03-09 22:57   
(edited on: 2012-03-09 23:00)
The base problem persists in 34.05. Tables are no longer flooding abandoned shops, but the towns are still all ghost towns, even when they shouldn't be.

The problem is that there are no houses in towns that have a long enough history for the original occupants to have died of old age.

Shops are set up, but abandoned shops are never reclaimed.

Now, there are no more tables and other abandoned furniture lying around everywhere, but the basic problem of shops being abandoned and never reclaimed remains. All buildings in towns are abandoned shops, and none are homes. Population pool characters never appear in towns (while they flood the empty houses in hamlets). Because there are no homes, all the non-shopkeeper historical characters live on the walls of the keep.

Animals from the population pools, such as chickens and cats, DO appear, apparently just because they are supposed to appear outside, and not in houses.

The only towns I can find that actually have large populations are ones taken over by goblins, largely just because they don't die of old age and don't starve, so if any actually emigrate rather early on, they'll take up 11,000 people in the supposedly human city that only has 100 humans in it.

I also put up another problem while testing this:
0005598
(0021328)
thvaz   
2012-03-10 01:10   
I hope this one get fixed, its killing adventure mode for me.
(0021346)
NW_Kohaku   
2012-03-10 18:14   
(edited on: 2012-03-10 23:57)
I have an update on 0.34.05 with more information after data-mining my save a bit.

First, it's basically impossible to find a town that actually grows up to a respectable size.

Most towns that get old have a population crash at some point. I'm not even sure why it's happening, but it may simply be the interference caused by the abandoned shops never being reclaimed and used by new residents. Otherwise, it appears as if starvation is still very much a problem.

In fact, the only cities that behave properly are occupied by goblins. In the world I am uploading saves from, goblins happened to move into human civs after a war, and actually took up the bulk of the civilization after a while, simply because all the humans could not survive in the cities. All the hamlets are human, but all the cities are almost entirely goblin. One city has 10,000 goblins, and only a couple hundred humans. This is the only max-size city I have ever seen, and every city that is at "#" in size has a massive goblin population. The northern, human-dominated towns are all stuck at "+" size of only about 100 or so people in general.

Goblin cities are overflowing with shops and generally rather bustling. (Goblins don't have furniture, but throw leather goods all over the floor for some odd reason, however...) This appears to be the way that human cities SHOULD work normally, and only works for goblins because goblins never grow old and never starve.

These cities, with all the shops available, are overwhelmingly cloth, leather, and clothing shops. A sizable minority exists for food, bonecarver, and general goods shops. Goods made of any sort of wood, stone, or metal are extremely rare. Of roughly a thousand shops I walked past, I only found about ten that had any stone or metal goods. Two were armorsmiths. Both had no goods in them whatsoever. One was a weaponsmith. They only carried silver and copper weapons. Combined with the bug relating to clothes sizes ( 0005598 ) it is nearly impossible to shop for anything of value in these cities.

Human towns have around 100 population in spite of having as many as 10 hamlets around them (usually 6), each with 400 people in them, castles with 20 people in them nearby, no major attacks in the recent past. They bloom early on up to "#" size, then have a population crash, apparently from starvation, back to "+" size and never recover any population, possibly because they never reclaim any buildings or perform any economic activities(?) afterwards.

On the human towns, also, even the "occupied" shops have nobody in them. (See the second DFFD linked save.) Only the marketplace and the parapets of the castle walls have actual people.

These towns also mysteriously have odd "outcasts", such as a "Polar Bear Outcast". Considering as "outcast" seems to indicate bandits or werecritters, the polar bear seems to be some sort of polar bear vampire or bandit or something, which is rather odd, although I haven't traced this one straight to its source as of yet.

Bug Saves:
All these saves are from the same world, and take place in different cities for comparison purposes:

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5842 [^] - Save with adventurer inside 10,000 goblin city.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5833 [^] - Comparison save with a different adventurer in a town with only 300 people from the other end of the region, and no goblin population. (From bug report 0005598 )

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5843 [^] - Save with adventurer from first bugged save in a different city, and in an armorsmith shop with no armor for sale. (Bug Report 0005133 )

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5844 [^] - Save from the same town, demonstrating that a shop sign is inside of a wall, and visible from the shop next door.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=5846 [^] - Save from hamlet outside of same town. Has an obvious vampire in it, from bug report 0005603 . The hamlet is entirely human, in spite of goblin city right next to it.
(0028451)
Footkerchief   
2014-08-06 07:50   
I haven't seen this recently. Please reopen this report or PM a manager on the forums if this problem is still present in 0.40.06+.
(0028485)
thvaz   
2014-08-06 13:41   
Yes, this still happens. The root issues NW_Kohaku identified are all there. You can see how the towns rarely get over the "+" sign in world gen.
(0030576)
NekoHatsu   
2014-10-08 05:24   
(edited on: 2014-10-08 05:34)
Happens to me too in 0.40.13
Also, I once spawned in a house with 5 rooms (or so) full of pears and wolf bone jewelry.
(0030577)
smjjames   
2014-10-08 07:47   
I've also noticed that when I get near a town that has a symbol other than + will change to the + symbol, possibly the same thing.