Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker - Dwarf Fortress
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0005927Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Trapspublic2012-05-19 18:302015-06-02 04:40
ReporterVaal 
Assigned ToToady One 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusresolvedResolutionno change required 
PlatformCompaq PresarioOSWindowsOS VersionWindows 7
Product Version0.34.09 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0005927: Traps Block Wagon Access
DescriptionDepot is listed as inaccessible and wagons pass by a site with a depot behind traps or pressure plates.
Steps To ReproduceBuild enclosed depot with 3 wide access. Build traps or pressure plates across 3 wide access. Check [D]epot access.
Additional InformationOthers on the forums have reported that a single line of cage traps doens't block access. In my own tests, they did.
TagsIntentional/Expected?
Relationships
related to 0006040resolved Toady One Minecart Tracks block Trade Wagons 
has duplicate 0005949resolved Footkerchief Traps block Wagon access to Depot, otherwise OK 
has duplicate 0005982resolved Logical2u Pressure plates dont let wagons to pass throught them 
has duplicate 0007953resolved Footkerchief Traders won't leave if way out of depot has been "blocked" with traps 
related to 0007404resolved Toady One Merchant wagons stuck near the trade depot 
Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2012-05-19 18:30VaalNew Issue
2012-05-19 22:13HiEvNote Added: 0022627
2012-05-20 01:23Knight OtuTag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2012-05-22 08:46HomeriusIssue Monitored: Homerius
2012-05-22 10:22agNote Added: 0022661
2012-05-22 11:46QuietustNote Added: 0022664
2012-05-22 11:50agNote Added: 0022666
2012-05-22 12:11eatatreeNote Added: 0022667
2012-05-24 14:08FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0005949
2012-06-03 08:37Logical2uRelationship addedhas duplicate 0005982
2012-06-03 19:09Brandon816Note Added: 0022827
2012-06-03 19:12kwielandNote Added: 0022828
2012-06-20 06:59AltareeNote Added: 0023062
2012-06-20 07:03TelarinIssue Monitored: Telarin
2012-06-20 07:40FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0006040
2012-06-20 14:44kwielandNote Edited: 0022828bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0022828#r8606
2012-08-11 00:53lcfNote Added: 0023438
2012-08-11 00:54lcfNote Edited: 0023438bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0023438#r8748
2012-08-11 00:56lcfNote Edited: 0023438bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=0023438#r8749
2012-08-11 01:00lcfIssue Monitored: lcf
2012-08-11 17:40kwielandNote Added: 0023441
2012-11-13 09:30caldfirNote Added: 0023713
2012-11-18 12:18arclanceIssue Monitored: arclance
2012-12-07 07:57lando242Note Added: 0023771
2012-12-28 20:10OokpikNote Added: 0023807
2012-12-28 20:11OokpikIssue Monitored: Ookpik
2013-02-08 15:56Hairy DudeNote Added: 0023846
2014-03-26 00:06agIssue Monitored: ag
2014-07-14 21:25SteveTheRedNote Added: 0026416
2014-08-11 09:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedrelated to 0007404
2014-08-11 09:25FootkerchiefRelationship addedhas duplicate 0007953
2014-08-11 14:18weegthNote Added: 0028832
2014-08-11 15:42TalvienoNote Added: 0028839
2014-08-12 06:12DaonitreNote Added: 0028869
2014-08-12 06:49smjjamesNote Added: 0028870
2014-08-12 08:35TalvienoNote Added: 0028875
2014-08-12 09:47TalvienoIssue Monitored: Talvieno
2014-08-13 13:27FootkerchiefAssigned To => Footkerchief
2014-08-13 13:27FootkerchiefStatusnew => confirmed
2014-08-14 12:44Toady OneNote Added: 0029047
2014-08-14 12:44Toady OneStatusconfirmed => resolved
2014-08-14 12:44Toady OneResolutionopen => no change required
2014-08-14 12:44Toady OneAssigned ToFootkerchief => Toady One
2014-08-14 14:40TalvienoIssue End Monitor: Talvieno
2015-06-02 04:40TelarinIssue End Monitor: Telarin

Notes
(0022627)
HiEv   
2012-05-19 22:13   
This change occurred in v0.34.08, but testing shows that fortresses made in earlier versions of DF that were upgraded to v0.34.08 did not have this problem *unless* they added/replaced traps or pressure plates after upgrading.
(0022661)
ag   
2012-05-22 10:22   
Investigated using dfhack: previously traps set building occupancy 2 (Passable in dfhack) in the tile; now they set 7 (Dynamic; implies the need to look at the building to determine if passable). Replacing the value on new traps with 2s makes them passable to wagons again.
(0022664)
Quietust   
2012-05-22 11:46   
Perhaps this is a side effect of the introduction of track stops (which are implemented internally as traps)?
(0022666)
ag   
2012-05-22 11:50   
Yeah, it probably needs special handling code for traps in depot access pathfinding now, since the basic case doesn't apply anymore.
(0022667)
eatatree   
2012-05-22 12:11   
Given that Toady frequently speaks of traps as being over-powerful, is no one certain this change isn't a deliberate nerf to traps? Now you can't trap your depot access route.
(0022827)
Brandon816   
2012-06-03 19:09   
I could understand that it might be intentional, but it doesn't make since with why people were doing it in the first place: you can't protect yourself at all times if you want to trade. If at the single moment that wagons arrive there isn't access to your depot, the wagons just somehow disappear. They don't wait around for you to give them access. People were trapping their depot access because it was the only way to protect their fort without leaving it open 24/7 to hostile forces, mostly the ones that couldn't be seen like snatchers and ambushers. Why would Toady intentionally nerf traps like this without making wagons wait around for awhile too?
(0022828)
kwieland   
2012-06-03 19:12   
(edited on: 2012-06-20 14:44)
Actually, it is possible to make a fort wagon accessible but still have traps. You just have to be smart about the layout. And exploit the pathing of hostiles. What gets me is the caravans that spawn on the edge right next to goblins and get massacred before you can even escort them. The hauling jobs alone stall the fort for a solid month!
(0023062)
Altaree   
2012-06-20 06:59   
Minecart tracks also block wagons!
(0023438)
lcf   
2012-08-11 00:53   
(edited on: 2012-08-11 00:56)
It's still there as of v0.34.11 (Linux, Ubuntu 12.04 x64).

I was very confused why trade depot couldn't be accessed with normal fortress layout that worked fine in previous versions - I've re-checked ramps, all the tunnels, was wondering if some trees are not obstacle, but wouldn't think traps can be the issue (until read about that on DF2012 wiki).

This basically prevents making secure (behind traps) trade depot, and forces me to expose depot to enemies - shouldn't this issue get higher priority?
(0023441)
kwieland   
2012-08-11 17:40   
@lcf - Rethink security. you can have a 1x1 "pasture" for war dogs that alert you to thieves, and badies will always path straight through traps. If you think about it, you can come up with a secure way to do it.
(0023713)
caldfir   
2012-11-13 09:30   
This feels like an intentional change, and only makes security planning moderately more difficult, but it isn't in the changelog so it is probably not intended.

To be honest I prefer it this way, since it encourages the player to be more active with security design, and trapping up your depot doesn't stop caravans from getting ambushed out in the middle of nowhere anyway, which seems to be what annoys people most.
(0023771)
lando242   
2012-12-07 07:57   
I've got an even better side effect. I didn't know about this change and right in the middle of a Human caravan I built some traps. One of the traps was completed with a wagon on top of it. This froze the wagon to the spot and backed up the whole line of five wagons! They sat there for about 2 months and then DECONSTRUCTED! It dropped all of their goods into five neat little piles, all in a row. The pack animals, merchants and guards then all preceded to wander to the edge of the map and mill around around until the trading time was complete. They left without any sort of problems, like a normal trading session. The wood for the wagon was on top of the pile and listed as "wagon wood logs". I can't seem to use them for anything and they just sit there.
(0023807)
Ookpik   
2012-12-28 20:10   
I think the problem might be more complex than this, since I had a fort going in vanilla 34.11 for around six years with my depot in a 5-wide hallway behind around 30 traps (stone + cage + weapon) without even realizing there might be a problem down the line. But then very suddenly it stopped working and the D's all turned red. I can't figure out what changed: I just got the message one year that the traders bypassed my depot, when everything had been fine before. I hadn't changed my hallway/depot setup in literally years of game time.

If this is intentional I personally hate it. I know hardcore players like to be all Leonardo with their fortress design but I like the option of having passive defenses. But even if it is intentional, it should be consistent -- why did my depot suddenly stop working?
(0023846)
Hairy Dude   
2013-02-08 15:56   
I had my 3 wide entrance blocked, by a 3x3 square of cage traps as it turned out. I set them to be removed, but the dwarf caravan came in while the front six were still in place.

(Personally I don't mind the change. Traps are definitely too powerful at the moment.)
(0026416)
SteveTheRed   
2014-07-14 21:25   
This is still an issue in 0.40.03. Also still very annoying, and one of the things I'd hoped would have been fixed in 0.40 :-(
(0028832)
weegth   
2014-08-11 14:18   
I personally like this a lot. It forces the player to leave at least the depot relatively undefended instead of hiding anything valuable behind 9000 traps. Please don't "fix" this! Although being able to build a trap right under a wagon does seem like a minor bug.
(0028839)
Talvieno   
2014-08-11 15:42   
I personally like it too.
(0028869)
Daonitre   
2014-08-12 06:12   
This should be closed as intended / not a bug.
(0028870)
smjjames   
2014-08-12 06:49   
Ultimately, since this one is so debateable, it's up to Toady One to decide whether this is actually intended or not.
(0028875)
Talvieno   
2014-08-12 08:35   
So let's ask. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.new#new [^]
(0029047)
Toady One   
2014-08-14 12:44   
My recollection is that this was an intentional change, and the code is consistent with that, though I don't have any specific notes about it. I like not having wagons going back and forth over pressure plates, anyway, though suggestions are welcome in the suggestion forum.