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Notes |
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... Any chance you could share with us the personality of those dwarfs? My dwarfs work until thirsty, but I've heard that a more "dedicated" dwarf might work longer. |
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I'll see if I can next time this happens. However, regardless of their personality they still get bad thoughts from being thirsty/hungry and starved/dehydrated. |
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They're minimal bad thoughts though it seems in terms of 'weight'
Everyone seems to work until the Downward arrows pop up. Thirst, hunger, and exhaustion all get indicated long before they wander their asses over to sleep in someone elses bed... |
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Minimal though they may be, the point is they're bad thoughts from actions entirely out of my control. I WANT my miner to eat, really I do! But the dude just won't unless I cancel all jobs associated with mining, and that's just frustrating as heck. |
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(0000395)
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CyberGenesis
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2010-04-02 20:12
(edited on: 2010-04-02 20:17) |
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It seems that they put the piority level of work > survival
I have this issue a lot...its why i dont cancel parties till this is fixed
EDIT: Not trying to downplay the annoyance...just a vast majority of the bugs are rather entertaining
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi [^]
All we need now are trains.
But seriously, setting any job to repeat that will be repeated for months on end (such as mass producing stone blocks) will kill your mason. Engraving anything big is suicide. Mining mega-projects are suicide. Accounting on high precision is probably suicide. Sometimes even military training is suicide, and not due to injury. They'll train themselves to death.
This doesn't come up much if you're just messing around, but once you have a fortress really coming underway you'll start noticing your guys working themselves to death with alarming frequency. I'd rate this one as rather serious. |
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Seems like our dwarves have finally got some decent work ethics, and only to do them to a overboardly insane level...
Just had my training militry go berserk and had my fort ruined just in 2 years all because of this:| |
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(0000431)
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derigo
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2010-04-02 22:59
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None of my dwarves masons have been willing to die to carve their blocks thus far. However, my chief mason "doesn't care about anything anymore" in a 1 year old fort with no deaths or significant catashtrophes. He's a little burned out. |
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Also had my military keep training until dehydrated, starving and miserable. I'm guessing they'd have ended up crazy and/or dead if I hadn't deconstructed the barracks to make them stop training.
My miner, however, seemed to keep working to a tolerable level while carving out my initial fort. He did regularly show as hungry and/or thirsty but never seemed to start going off the deep end with his behaviour. |
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(0000482)
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dorf
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2010-04-03 05:23
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Confirmed for pretty much every dorf, regardless of the description. |
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noticed this as well. At first I thought it was a bug only with military sparring, recruits staying in the barracks for way too long even as alarming downward arrows start to show up. I ended up giving them an alternating schedule of training, one month they train and one month they're free. But yeah, after reading this I did notice dwarves tend to just ignore the signals of their bodies, regardless of their occupation!
Also I think that with military sparring there might be another problem, Im wondering if its related. A dwarf is sparring, and shes becoming really depressed, so I take her out of the military, but she just stays there and keeps receiving an "individual drill" thing. I check back later, and shes still there. I had to take out the barracks for her to leave. Maybe its another priority thing? |
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All my dwarves have worked until decently hungry; but not starving. |
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I just had a jeweler who died of thirst while cutting gems. This is ridiculous! |
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hard to tell, my dwarves are usually starving because of decreased farming yields coupled with various pathing issues. |
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(0001560)
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kirvoq
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2010-04-06 13:04
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It's not just dwarfs getting bad thoughts (or dying, as some mentioned, though I never experienced that), but they also seem to get a skill penalty when working while thirsty, hungry or drowsy. I noticed my legendary miners got slower and lost their 100% chance of getting a stone from a mined out tile, while working in any of these states. |
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(0001571)
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bevilr
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2010-04-06 13:38
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This is more of a feature request but maybe a way to set this on/off/change severity would be nice |
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The problem in earlier versions would they would quit working on a job halfway done to go eat/sleep/drink. Now they keep taking new jobs of the same type to starvation.
The ideal would seem to be, when they first get the urge to eat/sleep/drink, they finish the task they are currently working on (eg, mine the one square) before breaking. |
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Exactly, Squirrelloid. I feel that was exactly what Toady intended. He just made it a bit too aggressive. |
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A bit of fuzzy logic would work wonders here. The desire to dedication can depend on the amount of work left to do (more work, quicker to go on breaks). That way they can finish off a "almost done" task and suffer a little bit in the process, but not overwork themselves on something that's going to take a few more weeks/months to complete. |
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(0001685)
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MaXMC
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2010-04-06 22:55
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I had the same problem yesterday with my Bookkeeper, I told him to have perfect account of my stock and since he was just an Adequate bookkeeper that took so much time that he almost starved to death.
Lucky me I noticed this on time.
Couldn't we have idle dwarves bring food to people working? |
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The best solution I think would be to make this a user option - work rate: extreme/reasonable/cake and ice cream for all! depending on the level you select the dwarves work harder and longer, but as a downside you get the problems people see now. |
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(0002003)
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random51
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2010-04-08 05:57
(edited on: 2010-04-08 05:58) |
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No dead dwarves here.
No starving dwarves.
No dehydrated dwarves.
This includes miners who've been working on designated mining pretty much since they set foot in the fortress.
This includes a mason who hasn't had an empty job queue since day one.
This includes a planter/grower who is working 6 3x3 plots all by himself.
This includes a bookkeeper/engraver.
This includes a horde of engraver/haulers.
I suspect that this new work ethic is just weeding out the inefficient fortresses from the efficient ones. If a dwarf can't get to food/drink/bed by the time he quits working to meet one of those needs then your dwarf is working too far away from one of those needs.
As far as happy thoughts go, my dwarves have great meals, great booze, a legendary dining room, and meager bedrooms with the best statues I can make at every major intersection.
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Nah, that's dumb. It's also very strange to go into a bug report and brag how much it isn't effecting you. |
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I haven't seen any deaths from overwork yet, and I've assigned pretty large areas for engraving so I know it's not just that I haven't given them enough work. |
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(0002253)
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Draco18s
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2010-04-08 21:14
(edited on: 2010-04-08 21:15) |
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I haven't seen any deaths* myself, but I did get a tantruming militia dwarf (and another who went crazy).
*HTML works :D
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I suspect this behavior was a big factor in my last fort where my only woodcutter took the only axe (the only weapon whatsoever) and went on a berzerker rampage within the first two years. This resulted in 11 deaths, including every single member of the military squad and the vast majority of my remaining dwarves. On the plus side it did neatly resolve my starvation problem. ;) |
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I like MaXMC and king doom solution. |
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(0002375)
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Zas
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2010-04-09 12:15
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Yeah, I also noticed that now dwarfs work until hungry/thirsty/drowsy but I never saw anyone working themselves to death or even to unhappiness. Could it be that dwarfs go karoshi only when they are generally unhappy, so that they kind of 'escape' into work? |
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(0002389)
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SirPenguin
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2010-04-09 12:40
(edited on: 2010-04-09 12:48) |
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As soon as a dwarf gets hungry/tired/thirsty enough he gets the bad mood modifier. He might be of a high enough disposition that this doesn't really matter, but the fact it happens at all is the bug I am talking about. I've also witnessed MANY dwarves, particularly miners and bookkeepers, who work until an "extreme" hunger/thirst kicks in.
The only death I've seen is a jewler who died while en route to the food stocks after cutting gems.
More anecdotal evidence: I'm trying to build some stuff in a cavern that's deep underground. Haulers often pass out in the stockpiles because they work until they are exhausted.
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you know, this could actually be related to why dwarves are not respecting bedroom ownership. Acts of desperation from dwarves that are being forced to work past reasonable limits by this new work ethic is leading them to sleep wherever is closest. |
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(0002449)
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Frewfrux
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2010-04-09 16:10
(edited on: 2010-04-15 12:19) |
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My dwarves are also working until their task is complete, and then going for food/drink/sleep, regardless of how long their task takes them.
In the case of miners, apparently an entire, *and* connected, block of mining designation counts as a single task. If they finish a section of mining that is not connect to another section, then they appear to do the check for hunger/thirst/sleepiness before starting on the next section of mining. A bit of a pain as there are often times when I have very large sections designated to be mined out.
What I do to get around this for the miners is disable their mining labour when I see it, wait for them to finish mining their current tile and head for water/food/bed and then re-enable the labour. Works wonderfuly, except that it means that they will always be complaining of hunger/thirst/tiredness.
In the case of plant gatherers and tree choperers, I have noticed that the task starts when the dwarf first heads out towards their first plant/tree. If it's a ways off and they started the journey just before becoming thirsty/hungry/tired, then they will not cancel their planned task until it is finished...no matter how far away the plant tree is.
EDIT: As of version .03 I am noticing different behaviour when it comes to mining. Proposed tests posted below.
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(0002481)
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Wirrit
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2010-04-09 18:04
(edited on: 2010-04-16 17:33) |
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I tend towards large constructions, and haven't had any dwarves starve yet. I don't -think- I've had any pass out, but I could be wrong.
I -have- had them eat until they've been hungry a little while, but I don't know if they went as far as bad thoughts or not.
---
Upgraded to 31.03, and made a few new worlds. Am starting to encounter this bug now; but the first fort seems OK on this front. Issue is mildly complicated by the fact that I actually run out of food/drink occasionally, now.
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Happened to my miners when they were engraving the dining hall. They kept at it even thought they were thirsty and drowsy.
The dwarf's dedication to finish the job is probably at fault, though I'm not sure whether they keep on moving to the next task (next tile to engrave) or they just see engraving all the tiles in the dining hall as a single task. |
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That's some very interesting research, Frewfrux. Seems like this is an unintended consequence after all, rather than the whole system being poop. |
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(0002725)
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Lesconrads
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2010-04-10 21:59
(edited on: 2010-04-10 22:02) |
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It would be interesting to know, if this is really bug-y, or if it is just miss-management.
I - too - have seen my miners working way too hard, even for a cat killing "god" like myself. He ignored the bed, food, booze and even individual dining room I have set up in his training area. I have then started to micro this dwarf as to keep him alive... will now try, if he'll die eventually and how this "mine one block" works. (This is bug testing after all Ôo)
Do you have to micro your jobs, because the dwarfs are dedicated now?
(And btw - I like the explanation, that the "dwarfs in other dwarfs beds" come from the desperate need to sleep asap. It sounds reasonable. They either work until exhausted and then go "SLEEPSLEEPSLEEP" (This is - dwarfs check if they die) or as soon as the AI thinks for a second, the dwarfs realize, that they've been working for a year straight and go "SLEEPSLEEPSLEEP" (This is - AI is bugy and only occasionally checks and then panics).)
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I've seen the same thing in my fortress. Any dwarf given a repeat activity or miners working on huge projects will continue to work until they are dehydrated/starving/exhausted and get unhappy thoughts. The only way I've been able to counter this is, as other people have been saying, either cancel the activity or remove the job from the dwarf's job list and they'll immediately run for food, drink and/or sleep. Micromanaging jobs works, but what a drag. No deaths for me yet, because I picked up on it once I started seeing all my dwarfs with down arrows and started running through canceling all the jobs.
Speaking for myself, I'm not sure why this would be a configurable option. Is anyone going to enable a "Dwarves work themselves to death instead of eat/drink/sleep" option? I think it just needs some tweaking of the strength of a dwarf's dedication to their job versus wanting to not die.
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More tests will be done for this, but I'm seeing this sort of activity happening to soldiers EVEN WITH flasks and backpacks full of food. It seems they consider a "station" or "move" order as a job, and thus won't eat or drink during it despite holding food.
Yet when I give them a new order they seem to eat it en route. hmm.
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Another thing I noticed is that any work order given to the manage counts as a single job for the purpose of a dwarf finishing the job before going to get food/water. For example, I was mass producing stone blocks and stone crafts by creating many, many 30 item work orders for these items. My dwarves would not stop producing them, even if they were dying of thirst. Suspending the active task didn't work, but both suspending the entire list of tasks or forbidding the workshop did (in that once they could no longer work on their 'job' they went to get themselves food/water).
I would imagine that, if you did not do things in large chunks, this would not be a big issue. Designate small areas to mine, only gather wood/plants that are very close, and do not assign 30 item work orders through your manager. However, that would mean an awful lot of micro-management.
I think the solution (as far as the code goes) might be to redefine what a 'job' is. If each tile counted as a single job for mining, then this would not be an issue for miners. If every item in a work order counted as a single job then that wouldn't be an issue. Also, maybe redefine when a job 'starts' so that a dwarf who is walking a bit of a distance to a tile to start their job doesn't go hungry on his way their. Who knows.
I'm just glad that all the trade goods for trading appear to count as their own jobs so that this does cause mass thirst/hunger. |
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Hmmmmm. I am noticing slightly different behaviour then I thought, now. It may have something to do with the fact that I’m now on .03 (I originally was using .01), but the issue isn’t completely gone. I am going to test this one out in the new version using the tests described below. I am posting them here in case anyone else wishes to try testing this issue out as well. If everyone follows the same tests, I would hope we all get similar results. I will post the results
Tests:
For all tests (where possible) use dwarves with both the skill in question as the only active sill, and dwarves with additional active skills (like hauling).
1. Mining
• Designate one large (in both x and y directions)
• Designate one thin, but long area
• Designate one large area that is naturally broken up into separate areas
• Designate several small areas
2. Workshop Queue
• Set a task to repeat
• Fill up the queue of a workshop and don’t let it ever be empty
• Use the manager’s queue to set up a single task to be executed 240+ times
3. Plant Gathering / Wood Chopping
• Designate an area close by
• Designate an area a fair distance away
4. Hauling
• Lock dwarves into a smaller area and create many hauling tasks
• Allow dwarves outside the initial area and create many hauling tasks that are far away
5. Training
• Place a small militia of about 4 dwarves on training only
Assumptions:
• Dwarves get thirsty/hungry/tired before they start to complain about it (allowing them time to fill their need for drink/food/sleep before it causes negative thoughts).
• The initial thirst/hunger/tiredness that a dwarf feels does not cause a negative thought and is not represented with the blue/brown/grey down arrow.
• The initial thirst/hunger/tiredness that players cannot see is a kind of grace period during which a dwarf is supposed to attempt to finish the task at hand prior to seeking to fulfill their need.
• Having dwarves work themselves to death is not intended behaviour.
Desired Outcomes:
• When a dwarf is set up with a repetitive task and first starts to become thirsty/hungry/sleepy they will finish the single task at hand, and then pause to fill their need.
• If a dwarf is on their way to a task that is a long distance away and becomes thirsty/hungry/sleepy before they arrive at the destination to start the task they will cancel the task they were about to start to fill their need as the time it would take for them to arrive, start the task, and get back may cause dehydration/starvation/passing out.
Setting up the tests
1. Wall off about a 20 tile by 20 tile area to contain the dwarves.
2. Add a doors/draw bridge to allow the dwarves both access to outside and the ability to prevent the access as the test requires.
3. Dig down stairs in the center of the area and, one z level below, create a dining room (and food storage, obviously), dormitory, and well (or lots of drink) as close as possible to the stairs.
4. On one far side of the upper, walled-off area build the required workshops for the tests. Craft workshops and masons workshops work well as they can use the stone that will be plentiful after the mining tests. A smelter would also work well if the map has plenty of surface metals available, and a carpenter’s workshop would work okay, but probably only after the woodcutting tests.
5. Make sure to build at least two of each on that side. (This is for testing different skill configurations for the dwarves.)
6. Add stockpiles near the workshops so the dwarves will have easy and quick access to the required materials.
7. On the opposite, far side of the walled off area build the same workshops, but without any stockpiles so that the stairs leading to the drink/dining room/dormitory is between the area the dwarves are working and the required resource they will need to complete their tasks. Remember to build at least two of each, and forbid these workshops initially. |
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(0003763)
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buman
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2010-04-15 15:35
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for those mentioning military bad thoughts, you need to reduce the minimum number of active members of the squad from ten to one.
This is kind of a bug because it should default to one but in the mean time you are telling them they need to keep training until they are starving because the safety of the fort depends on it. |
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Okay, the results of my test were conclusive. Dwarves who are set to do repetitive tasks will keep doing them even past the point of thirst/hunger/tiredness and will complain constantly about it. No matter what I did or what situation it was I could not get a dwarf who was making rock blocks to eat/drink/sleep prior to the point at which it caused an unhappy thought.
That said, no one died. There appears to be a built in point at which the dwarves will 'throw in the towel' and stop working in order to preserve their own life. Also, while everyone complained of hunger or thirst, no one complained of starvation or dehydration...except for the military dwarves.
I did not initially know about the minimum number of dwarves setting mentioned above and my dwarves continued to train themselves well into dehydration and starvation, though they all temporarily left the military (becoming civilians) to go get food and water (they didn't need to leave the military to sleep) to prevent dieing. They got very angry about it and started stealing armour stands (one of my masons was on repetitive armour stand making).
Once I set the minimum number of dwarves to 1, instead of 10, it made little difference. What started happening was occasionally a dwarf would leave training to work as a civi, but usually only one at a time.
Also, a dwarf who starts a task that is a long ways off will, no matter what, complete the trip there before making a decision about coming back for food or water. (My miner kept walking over three times the width of the map to mine a single tile and come back due to thirst or hunger.) |
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Could the job tasking be changed so that when the dwarf doing the work gets hungry/thirsty/sleepy, the system will start to look for another dwarf to do that job. If one is found, this dwarf will head over to the location of the task (likely workshop, but maybe even mining) while the first dwarf is still working. When he gets there, they swap, either in mid task, or after that single task is done. The thirsty/hungry/sleepy dwarf can go, and the newcomer will keep working. There won't be breaks, and the single worker won't stress himself to death before leaving. This way you could have workshops work better around the clock. |
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(0003835)
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derigo
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2010-04-16 05:53
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@buman
This is supposed to be how you deal with this correctly, yes. However, currently this other bug exists, which makes it not really work right.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=751 [^]
@Frewfrux
Yes I've never seen a dwarf die from working before either. I suppose its possible if a given task was sufficiently far away, and the dwarf was pretty hungry/thirsty before he started trekking. I have mixed feelings about the dwarves insisting on completing their current task before getting food/drink. It sounds good on paper, but for those really far away jobs, it doesn't actually speed things up, but rather slows them down since the dwarf walks the full distance in both directions every time.
@LordDemon
That sounds terribly undwarfy and well thought out. It's also a suggestion. It also sounds obscenely difficult to implement given the way the current system works, so don't hold your breath. |
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Just for clarification, my miner dwarf dug out a very, very long tunnel that had only one entry point (the main “fort” area) and wound its way all over the map to over 3 times the length of the whole area (almost 4 times the length). At the end of this, he was basically just heading out to do the mining, getting hungry (or thirsty or tired) before he got there, getting there and mining only a single tile before giving up and heading back.
It happened a lot (because I forgot about him while looking over my training militia) and in all that time he never once complained about starvation or dehydration, only hunger and thirst. As a result of this, I do not think that it is possible for a dwarf to die due to the distance of the task, unless a player goes out of their way and specifically creates a situation in which this could happen.
(Note, too, that my hauling dwarves were heading to get the most recently mined rock, so my haulers had the same distance to deal with. It’s interesting that, while the haulers got hungry/thirsty on their way to their target, they never appeared to drop what they were carrying to head back empty handed for sustenance. I think that’s because the hauling job counted as the first, single job, and dwarves will always complete the first job.)
I was thinking of solutions for this (without knowing the code, do take it for what it’s worth…not much) and I came up with three possible solutions:
Currently:
(state 1) Dwarves currently have an initial period during which they want food, but will only get it if they are not otherwise occupied. They also do not complain about it during this period. (state 2) Their next state is to complain about being hungry, but still they don’t stop what they are doing to get food. (state 3) The next period (before they are starving) is when they will drop what they are doing to feed themselves, if they are in a civilian occupation. (state 4) The final period (unless you count death) is when a dwarf enters starvation. If they are a military dwarf they will leave the military (you will get a msg about them becoming a civilian) to go get food, and then rejoin the military after that.
Possible solutions:
1 - Allow civilian dwarves in state (1) who are doing a repetitive task to pause after a repetition is complete but before the next one to go get food. Allow military dwarves who are in training who enter state (1) to finish their current exercise to go get food (or eat from their pack).
2 – Change state (2) to be state (2.5) and add a new state (state 2) where dwarves are hungry, won’t yet complain about it, and will cancel repetitive tasks to get food. (They will still complain when they reach state (2.5) which becomes ‘they’re hungry and can’t do anything about it’...as opposed to the new state ‘they’re hungry and can do something about it’.)
3 – (my favorite option) Add two new screens to the nobles section, Manager’s settings and Militia Commander’s settings, similar to the bookkeeper’s setting. These new setting set how much of a hard-a$$ the noble will be about completing tasks, and give the options to be lax about completing tasks (dwarves can get food whenever), strict (dwarves must complete current iteration of repetitions), task master (dwarves must complete all tasks) or ‘where there’s a whip there’s a way’ (may not stop for *anything* and work until dead). This would allow players to force hungry dwarves to mine out a channel in the face of an impending assault on the fort. However, this option is no longer a way to fix a bug, but rather a feature request, so it should probably go somewhere else. |
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Well, it would be good to know how the old system (in 40D) worked so that we could compare what exactly is going on. I know everybody knows how it worked in general, I mean in detail or codewise. |
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(0003908)
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Proteus
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2010-04-16 14:26
(edited on: 2010-04-16 14:28) |
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I had my first dwarf die vom Dehydration because of his work in my last fortress.
I had 4 craftsdwarf workshops designated with full lists of items to produce (my way to get rid of excess stone in rooms) and my only craftsdwarf died from dehydration when he was working on the 2nd workshop (of course he had free access to booze and water supplies during this time and could just have stopped working and going for a drink)
Taught me to be really careful about giving my dwarfs rest between work orders as long as there aren´t multiple dwarves who are able to do the same job ;)
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(0003920)
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derigo
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2010-04-16 17:13
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@smjjames
The 40d system was very simple. When dwarfs got to a certain 'im going to be hungry/thirsty/tired in a minute threshhold, they would simply drop whatever they were doing mid-task, and go fulfill their needs. I like the 'feel' of the current system. Since dwarves doing a task won't stop until they really need a drink, they tend to work for a long while, go get a drink, go eat, take a nap, and then go back and work for a long while again. It makes for much less travel time in most cases.
Extreme distance jobs have always been kind of unmanageable. A hauler tasked with a far away object used to set off in search of the object, get most of the way there, and then get thirsty and start heading back home. Even if they made it to the object and picked it up, if they got thirsty on the way back, they would drop it and go all the way back to the fort to get a drink. Then some other poor schmo would get the task and repeat. It was always less of an issue for miners, because by the point when you were doing crazy long distance mining operations, your miner would be superdwarvenly agile, and able to get there and back in a flash. Now not so much.
@proteus
I don't know... I've played 4 forts and I've had plenty of various craftsdwarves working full time, and I've never seen one die in that manner. Are you absolutely certain the death can't be explained by a pathing problem of some sort or something?
Oh Frewfrux, have you considered having the workshops get impossibly cluttered? I never let my workshops get very cluttered. If the workshop was
!!$$OMG--Cluttered--GMO$$!! (and on fire aparently) doing even 1 of an activity could take months. Might that not kill the worker? |
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I Don´t think pathing problems were involved.
The path was simple, just follow a hallway, go up a few levels in the main stairway and you areat the main hallway, double used as interims booze storage as well as access hallway to the fortress and wasn´t altered between the time he got to the workshops and the time he died of dehydration.
I also got no messages about "job cancelled because unable to find path"
I also don´t think cluttering was involved...
it was the first or 2nd time I added jobs to these workshops, so the cluttering was minimal (and I had darves work in workshops that were cluttered till red level without problems) nothing a competent stonecrafter wouldn´t be able to cope.
The best thing I can think of would be that something in his combination of attributes that had smething to do with it (just speculation as I don´t know his atributes, but maybe a combination of "works hard" and "weak").
(after all also for me he is the first dwarf who died from something like Karoshi, after I made several fortresses in 31.01/02/03) |
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I've been getting dwarves randomly "bleeding to death" for no apparent reason. I was worried about deadly temperatures for a while but then another one happened, this one in a loom during the harvest rush. When dwarves die from overwork, what do they die from? |
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(0004181)
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Hugna
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2010-04-18 21:38
(edited on: 2010-04-18 21:54) |
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My dwarf FINALLY decided to take a drink while he still had work to do. I assume his priority is either random, or just plain wants to starve/dehydrate.
Make that a second time. He seems to keep himself from being dehydrated.
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(0004191)
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ra2phoenix
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2010-04-18 23:29
(edited on: 2010-04-18 23:40) |
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@Corona688
I had a bunch of dwarves spontaneously drop dead in a bleeding heap today. In my case, I did a volcano embark and I think the rim of the caldera (the obsidian wall of the pipe) counts as being hot, even though the top of it isn't labeled as warm stone. Due to the geography, they were hauling across the rim and I think the heat transfer melted the skin off their feet, causing them to erupt in blood and run around trailing it before falling down.
I'm not sure if this is WAI or a bug, but I would check your dwarves' feet if you suspect this sounds like your issue. Mine started showing some wear on their feet and getting faint before the point of no return.
Edit: Just read 0000289. Toady acknowledged tiles immediately near magma had heat transfer issues, so dwarves frequently pathing past magma are at risk for spontaneously melting limbs off.
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Had a smelter die of thirst today two stairways below a functioning well. I may have been out of booze at the time, so I'm not sure if it was pathing, a fussy dwarf, or he didn't want to leave his repeating work queue. |
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I am at a volcano, but all indoors now and the only spots close to any magma are the smelters. I'd expect my metalworkers to be dying like rotisserie chickens if anything but they're still happy as clams, this whatever-it-is seems purely random. |
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I noticed a preference that one of my dwarves had...something like "will work until finished at great personal cost". Could this possibly explain why one person might see a dwarf die from being over-worked while others don't? I'm going to have to keep an eye on that guy. |
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(0004815)
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derigo
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2010-04-23 18:46
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Something new to add to this. I've noticed that dwarves who are hungry/thirsty/drowsy seem to work more slowly and produce lower quality stuff. Its actually easy to see if you watch your legendary miner. When he starts getting hungry/thirsty etc he starts popping less and less rock. My high master armorsmith produced 4 consecutive no quality shields when he was hungry and thirsty and drowsy. |
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(0005111)
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daniel
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2010-04-26 06:41
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I had a carpenter trapped in a level until he was dehydrated. When I let him out, he went directly to build a bed, rather than get a drink. He died of thirst while making that bed. |
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I haven't seen any of my dwarves actually work themselves to death yet, but I have noticed problems starting out a new fortress - my miner will work until absurdly hungry/thirsty/exhausted, have bad thoughts, leave to go get rations/sleep, then come back fed but still angry from the earlier extremes. Repeats until they're constantly ticked off and working very slowly.
For one miner in this state, I got another dorf to take the pick and continue on...once deprived of the pick the original worker immediately went insane from melancholy, despite the fact that the mining was making her depressed in the first place. |
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I can confirm what derigo said. When thirsty / hungry / drowsy dwarves work they have effectively less skill. Legendary+5 miner started wasting ore, my grand master armorsmith started making well-crafted stuff instead of superior-exceptional.
I think all this is intended, but would be nice to be able to set certain dwarves to prioritize their own needs higher so they are always fresh at work. |
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(0005475)
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Vastin
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2010-04-27 22:20
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I haven't yet encountered this issue, but nor have I tried any mega-projects in the recent versions - I tend to micromanage and rarely have tasks where I assign Dwarves to dig/smooth several hundred squares at a pass.
I certainly see masons and other workers taking regular breaks from indefinitely repeating tasks as well and haven't seen any serious unhappiness due to exhaustion/hunger.
So given the frequency others are reporting for this bug, I also suspect it may have to do with the sheer size of a given task - probably combined with a personality trait that leads to overwork? |
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I haven't noticed anything as extreme as dwarves dying, but even in a relatively young fort I've had dwarves work (and party) until thirsty, drowsy, etc.
I keep needing to suspend repeating tasks, and free up the dining hall so they'll stop partying until they're miserable. |
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Maybe this should be considered a major issue? sounds like there aren't really any good workarounds since they still get the bad thoughts. |
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between this bug and pathfinding issues I've pretty much lost all desire to play until something gets patched. I'm still poking at it occasionally to confirm bugs, but mostly I'm burnt out until things improve a bit. |
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I agree, this among other bugs makes me reluctant to start a fort, having some fun messing around in arena mode though. |
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I've never been one to create large fortresses. By the time I attract 100 dwarves, I'm ready to move on and fiddle with a different scenario, however I have seen this in 31.03, normally with my miners and militiamen, but also with my craftsdwarves, all of which I tend to have do the same repetitive job for long periods of time. |
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Yeah, I have to agree that this is a tad more than a minor bug - combined with the whole farming issue I probably won't be starting any new fortresses either till this gets fixed in some fashion. |
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Once I had an arsenal dwarf die of thirst because he worked until he was thirsty (I didn't notice), was about to go get a drink (presumably), but then I gave him more orders and he went to work on those. The stockpiles were not too far away, but once he realized he was deathly dehydrated, he didn't have enough time to reach the drink stockpiles before he died. He got up from his desk to go get a drink but died before he reached them.
There could be a problem with certain tasks overriding even dehydration. However, this is the only time I've ever had one die. The rest of my dwarves always suffer bad thoughts from dehydration and starvation and passing out just like everyone else's games. |
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So they get bad thoughts? So what? It doesn't make the game unplayable. Just be a bit careful about queuing up lots of work at once. |
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(0006577)
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m4st0r
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2010-05-12 02:29
(edited on: 2010-05-12 03:26) |
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No, the bad thoughts are no problem. The problem is they perform poorly. When thirsty/drowsy/hungry, for example, my legendary miners work as slow as a normal miner. With the same poor drop results (annoying when mining high value stuff).
If they would finish the current tile they are mining, go for a drink and come back, it would even save time. Instead, they continue to mine for hours with this slow pace. The only solution is to manually disable mining until they are refreshed. Micromanagement overkill.
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When people see dorfs die of thirst, how far apart were their jobs and drink sources and how many FPS were you getting? In my forts no workshop is ever more then about 20-30 steps from booze/food/beds and they generally only get dehydrated on the way to drink. |
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(0006963)
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Krine
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2010-05-18 12:00
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Losing all my miners one by one because they work until they decide to scavenge vermin for food. After carving out most of my fort, the one area that's a deathtrap for them is one that's about 20 by 20 and down a couple of ramps. They go down there, and I'd say it's about 150 or so paces from the nearest food and booze stockpile. My other workers don't have this problem, presumably since I'm too early to have enough work for them to do at all times. Never checked my framerate, but I'm pretty sure it's running at its default optimal rate. |
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(0006985)
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pbhead
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2010-05-18 17:39
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I have this issue too... its really annoying when they are staying tired and such, and so they dont bother to sleep in their own beds and just crash in the barracks... which means they arent getting nice thoughts from the wondrfull bedrooms i gave them :-( |
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I submit that this issue should not be 'minor'. It drastically reduces playability. Every fortress, every dwarf, will starve and thirst until they're pissed enough to berserk at some point unless you monitor them and manually force them somehow to quit their job temporarily.
I vote Major Problem. I can't get a fortress going until this nonsense gets fixed, unless I want to spend weeks going 'ok, quit working. Ok, start working!' |
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The severity and priority fields don't matter.
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(0007726)
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swuboo
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2010-06-05 11:30
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I can confirm that this bug is still present in .05. A perfectly healthy, conscious Planter keeled over dead of thirst while partying. |
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I've had a tinker making mechanisms and a mason making doors go berserk. A woodcutter die of thirst and 2 minters collapse from exhaustion. .05
I don't think this feature is causing these problems by itself, but if the dwarfs are already in a bad situation (depressed or far from food/water for example) it is certainly pushing them over the edge. |
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(0007992)
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pbhead
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2010-06-09 08:07
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this doesnt seem to be fixed yet, and it is a rediculously important bug... the game is unplayable untill this is fixed. |
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(0007995)
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cdawg
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2010-06-09 10:50
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i really can't play this game until this and the military bug is fixed. the underground looks amazing but it doesn't even feel worth exploring yet. :\ |
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(0007997)
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Nikov
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2010-06-09 11:28
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I have never had a dwarf work himself to death, even in the military. |
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(0008031)
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zagibu
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2010-06-10 02:20
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It does seem a combination of things, as I also belong to the people with several forts where no dwarf has ever died of thirst, hunger or exhaustion because of overwork. They DO get bad thoughts, and that's probably a bug, but it still seems strange that some people have dwarves dying and others seem largely unaffected by it. |
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It most likely 100% depends on what you do in your fort. One surefire way to get SOMETHING to happen is to build stuff in one of the underground caverns, especially if they have a long way to go for sleep or food. I've noticed it happens a lot with haulers, if only because I see them passed out/etc. in the stockpiles |
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I don't think it's too complicated to counteract this. Dwarves need new boxed lunches that they can 'eat while working' if so needed. After the job is finished, and if their box (and flask of booze/water) isn't full, they go for a refill. Problem solved.
Another option is to readjust the threshold levels of hunger and thirstiness before breaking job order. They should do so quite a bit earlier than currently. I think the problem is solved this way, too.
A third option is to let the player micromanage. It needs some menu similar to the orders menu where we can set per-profession settings, and in the view unit menu an overriding per-dwarf setting.
Options for these should be something like:
-Break if any problem / Work until death
-Break if tired
-Break if thirsty/dehydrated
-Break if hungry/starving
You can go through the selections by selecting one option repeatedly. They'll go like "Don't break..." -> "Break if..." -> "Break if...(option 2)". If none are set as active, and there are no fallback orders, it resolves to the current system. Dwarves follow the lighter orders to the letter, but the starving, etc. options need a check roll from their personality. I like this method of problem solving the best.
The advantage is that my miners don't need to suffer a single bit, they could never experience hunger or thirst in my fort, if that was possible. I really don't need lousy crafts done by starving crafters, and it annoys me greatly when they do that for no good reason. The caravan comes in a couple seasons, I'd think they have the time to grab a mug of beer before resuming work. Then again I think a farmer could starve a bit if it means they get the planting done before they run back for dinner.
This could be later improved by adding unfinished jobs that could be resumed from where they were left, unless it's a cooking job or some other time-critical job. |
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I'm going to mark this one off for 0.31.07, though there could be cases I missed. Any saves would help me continue to iron it out. Saves almost always help. I made workers stop taking new jobs if they can and want to eat/drink/sleep instead. Hunger/thirst/drowsiness skill/speed penalties only apply to starving people now, and the different thoughts come up later enough in the process that people that hang in there for a job or two shouldn't have them. |
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