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Notes |
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Can you confirm that this still happens in 0.40.18? |
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(0031789)
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qoph
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2015-01-08 14:13
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Found to no longer be an issue in .23/.24 |
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If anyone has a save that reproduces this problem in the latest version, please upload it to http://dffd.wimbli.com/ [^] and PM a manager on the forums (or reopen the report). |
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(0036818)
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Loci
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2017-10-29 11:43
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v0.43.05x32: While investigating 0010315, eleven immigrant dwarves formed a dozen friendships idling in a 3x3 meeting area zone (no locations defined on site, very few jobs to perform, dwarves modded with [NO_EAT][NO_DRINK]). It's possible that the location-based socializing doesn't work as well as the old idling socialization. |
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(0036821)
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FantasticDorf
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2017-10-30 03:28
(edited on: 2017-10-30 07:03) |
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Dwarves do not actively socialise within taverns through conversation, it is a needs function to raise merryment & be egible to begin performances and while some social interaction happens, how much they gain is opaque and as you commented probably not as effective. They are not idle either to begin a conversation as seen in issue report 0010309 and overlap both idle conversation & socialisation activities for maximum benefit.
Further evidence can be found by zooming in on conversations filtered to fortress mode announcements, which will almost always happen in meeting zones & travelling routes.
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(0036938)
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Dwarfu
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2017-11-23 15:47
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Potentially fixed per post:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=168288.msg7625153#msg7625153 [^]
Lemtoad:
"Also I'm noticing relationships are forming again, did change anything about how they form while socializing?"
Toady One:
"I might have addressed something, though it was a long time ago and I must not have written it down. I did check the chat function during Socialize, but I don't remember if I found an error. Hopefully it is working now." |
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Issue persists into 44_08 but can be managed with strictly enforced compact meeting zones for growth over a long period of time, not ideal but friendships can be formed this way. Dwarves still become frequently distracted with having to fufill their needs.
Looking at DFhack in regards to Toady's comment, in the activity queue <vector<unit_action> for tavern 'socialization' does not have a corresponding entry for Talk(7) simultaneously and is set to None(-1) virtually always besides when they physically move to another spot for the currently most recent action. I don't think that function might be active like Toady checked it out for. |
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Chatting in fort mode is not governed by the talk action, so that won't matter. It's just a matter of how broken it is; they seem to be calling the chat function again, but it's still generally infrequent? |
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(0038080)
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FantasticDorf
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2018-03-30 01:11
(edited on: 2018-03-30 01:17) |
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I can't seem to find anything relating to chats in DF-hack as a value and in-game upon observation arguing appears to fire semi-frequently, which when coupled with 0010676 make a issue of constant deflection it seems. Due to dwarf civ values they more likely to lean into the facet of being unfriendly or quarrelsome in which they need to constantly eke out a reaction and shut down chats prematurely according to how adventurer conversations operate (citation from the dfwiki).
( http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Flatterer [^] )
Whereas if they already have friends (starting 7) or family (migrant spouses/children) they will talk every now and again to them when positioned over clear generic meeting zones filling their own family & friends needs, whereas in location (especially) & art based meeting zones they're transfixed on filling the needs related to that area.
It is infrequent in the sense of pulling dwarves away from time-sinks and putting them all in close contact with each other in the meeting zones until you find a arguing pair that somehow clicks together and fits to become friends in instances.
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Dwarves (and visitors) can form friendships and grudges normally, but yes, it's rather infrequent, and spontaneous marriages (i.e. not engineered by the overseer) are rare. If you look a dorfs in any normal fortress, they tend to have passing relations with lots of visitors, but few with the citizens they grew up with (the starting 7 typically start out with high relations, which may be grudges, between each other, and all do not have to have relations with everyone else).
I would suggest the brokenness is caused by a lack of direction in the chat partner selection process, as it seems they chat which whoever they happen to stand near, but not with friends/family at the other end of the tavern, while still badly distracted from a lack of interaction with them: there's probably a need for them to seek out chatting partners to some extent so there is a bit of nudge towards strengthening existing relations (not 100%, but a bias towards seeking out people they know among those they see).
Once there's a bit of a choice of chat partners we may be in a position to judge whether the chat frequency is suitable or not: there's a lot of difference between spreading chatting randomly between 75 visitors and 10 citizens in the tavern and biasing the chatting towards the 10 citizens.
It can also be noted that artifact information giving frequently happen without "chatting", as inbound questers are reported to have been told about artifacts by citizens, while still not revealing why they're in the fortress, as they need to chat with a citizen first... In the same vein, it's not uncommon to find visitors in the tavern who do not reveal their reasons for visiting because they didn't chat with any citizens they met on the way in, and they spend their time in the tavern chatting with other visitors (which goes contrary to biasing citizen chatting away from visitors. There may be a need for a "visitor intent determination" chat/interrogation bias as well). |
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It would appear that everybody's experience of the performance of this bug is slightly different person to-person depending on how the fortress is built, a fortress with just tavern or temple zones set to default is unlikely to have dwarves even acknowledge each other.
@PatrickLundell's detailed account is different for the personal interactions, to which in my comment prior to theirs i would agree in that dwarves with no argumentative tendencies (rare) would become frustrated by other dwarves, and painstakingly struggle to select those handful of dwarves in a crowd who likewise don't have a bugged need to argue and make unnecessary conflict naturally.
But without just pathing to the compatible people, being constantly rebuked by arguements from everyone you meet, especially with effects of rudeness and high bashfulness from alcohol syndromes would make sense in context. |
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For a relevant note, a new note in 0010676 outlines that the issue with friendships not being formed can be overcome as per a correct observation by @PatrickLundell that the dwarves by chance have to meet literally the right person who doesn't posses a argumentative attitude or has it low enough to not repeat and close conversations to just fufill the need endlessly.
In that issue report's save i provide a example of a *mutual* friendship formed in fortress play almost exclusively between two compatible dwarves with positive facets, compared to usually negative dwarven civilisation set facets that set a baseline unfriendliness to all dwarves. |
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I tend to run forts with small populations, anywhere between 1 and 30 usually, and I tend to see marriages fairly often.
I personally think it might actually have to do with the size of meeting areas, because I see marriages far more often when I have my dwarfs compacted into a small meeting area.
I've noticed that in Adventure mode that a bunch of people in a tiny area (houses in human towns) can create a harsh chat spam, but the same or even larger number of people spread out (dwarven drinking mounds) don't create nearly as much chat spam even though they're still in range to have my character hear it.
So my theory is that if you force your dwarfs into a small space, they will be forced to make more interactions with eachother and thus create much stronger relationships.
I just had a marriage happen in an 8 max pop isolation fort I made to experiment with creature invader tags. The meeting area's main floor space that the dwarfs usually stand inside is 3x3. I've uploaded some screenshots of the marriage announcement, the two dwarfs in question's thoughts, my citizen screen, and the meeting area itself (which is also a private tavern). https://imgur.com/a/aSeuH1j [^]
I can also provide the save less than a minute after the marriage event happened if necessary, I was done testing this fort anyway.
Of course I could be completely wrong, but I've seen many marriages in my low-pop forts while I hear other people who've been playing for longer than I have haven't even seen one. |
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171185.msg7800686#msg7800686 [^]
Tiny taverns & meeting spaces reinforce @DanteTorn as told by the flow of discussion on the linked thread above to the forums. Dwarves will overflow from super tiny taverns double stacked upon each other dangerously into meeting zones when there's nowhere to stand.
Picture in the thread has only 35 tiles of open space with no instruments and supports a entire fortress of over 100+ dwarves, which in realistic terms can accommodate 70 dwarves for every square inch when pets are pastured away. 2x2 libraries have no passive activities to distract from long conversations and are said to be good too in their stead.
@DanteTorn's observation on chatter spam, and getting a word in edgeways over being forced to listen to stories and other little activities which pull away from talking sound very relevant. |
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(0039860)
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Talvieno
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2020-02-04 11:19
(edited on: 2020-02-04 11:20) |
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This seems to still be a problem. First, the research in 0011064 suggests they have a hard time starting conversations to begin with, and second, there's the fact that even dwarves that have "Socialize!" in pink not only don't seem to have any idea of where to stand to talk to other dwarves, but can't even pick the correct meeting hall. Guild members, for instance, seem to like to go to their relevant guildhall to socialize - even if said hall is currently empty. This leads to dwarves becoming stressed a lot more quickly than it should.
(Amusingly, this also means that people that are members of a church or guild are more likely than anyone else to snap.)
A quick fix would simply be having a dwarf that wants to "Socialize!" seek out only rooms with at least one other dwarf there, and then stand directly next to other dwarves, so they can actually hold conversations.
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(0039954)
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Orkel
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2020-02-08 03:00
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Yeah this is still a problem. Relationships simply don't form properly right now. One of the latest devlogs states that it'll be fixed before the Steam release, though, so hopefully there'll be a bugfix in one of the 0.47.0x releases. |
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47.02, new relationships types are working but the starting seven still have the advantage over migrants for personal relationships. However, when Dwarves are assigned to open-access non membership guild halls in compact floor space, they will actively socialise effectively and build relationships (until) demonstrations start and social development stops, similar to tavern activities.
'Socialise' overlaps and has the same close function as idle, so as a recommendation if non-location assigned meeting zones had socialise by default, without fortress wide performers, they would be able to mingle without the distracting activities. |
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This was possibly fixed with the behavioural change in 47.03, right? It seems like migrant dwarves are forming new relationships now as well. |
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Possibly fixed, hard to tell. I'm not seeing any new relationships on my dwarves, even when they're supposedly socializing. I would think "passing acquaintance" ought to be gained almost immediately, and I haven't seen that happening. |
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Specifically the issue of the starting seven is fixed as they have regular contact with everyone else in the fortress now with 47.03's path finding but mobility for social skills is still ongoing.
New migrants with no prior social xp gain very little experience face to face with other dwarves at a dabbling level, compared to socially skilled upon arrival migrants who often have instant and better levelling when assigned to trade duties and socialisation with the status they recieve (mayoral & expedition leader positions).
The starting seven will not make relationships and vice versa with dwarves who cannot communicate for factors of personality shyness in dwarf culture also. |
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After some further testing, I am not sure if the issue is really gone for good. Dwarves certainly seem to be talking to each other properly now, but friendship rate still seems rather low. In a roughly four years old fort, I am seeing maybe two or three friendships among dwarves outside of the starting seven.
I suspect randomness may be the reason behind it. It looks like dwarves choose at random with whom they socialise, and since everyone goes to meeting areas at different times, it might take a while until two dwarves have talked to each other often enough to form a relationship in a large fort. I expect the number of friendship would increase after a long enough time though.
I also noticed that the socialise activity in taverns is often interrupted when someone starts a performance, leading to no increase in the relationship counter. Then there is 0011395 which also slows friendship formation down. |
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Sometimes with occupational bards also keeping dwarves entertained (listening to eloquent speech and dancing as much as required), its much easier to bundle dwarves inside guild halls to learn & bunch up when they have no other activities, even though that's prone to distraction from demonstrations in big numbers.
Performers will react to the needs of the audience before starting their act, but the way dwarves jump in themselves even with performers present means that these events get handed sometimes to amatuer audience members who aren't as entertaining as hired or assigned professionals, leaving dwarves wanting more, sometimes repeat performances instead of socialising.
So there's only a little bit (more) breathing room than before for dwarves to socialise, but if everyone in the tavern currently is satisfied, performances temporarily stop and they talk at length. |
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The thing that bothers me is that 'socialize' isn't the activity that causes them to talk, but rather it is a 'branches out into other activities' activity, and it branches out into listening, watching a performance, etc. The talking thing itself is completely separate, and it has been since the introduction of taverns that this doesn't seem to work like it should.
I've always assumed that it was because socialize (and it's branching activities like listening/watching a performance) interferes with the chatting somehow that dwarves don't make friends in taverns, but as the chats are not visible, I have never been able to verify that. |
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I'm finding that currently dwarves are making friends and the new socializing groups are working. I think socializing has actually been fixed so that it does mean actually socializing. |
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