0000013: Farm plots built underground (Inside/Dark/Subterranean) on natural soil will not allow planting

(0000015)
Avalkia (reporter)
2010-04-01 14:54

In that case, I humbly suggest that the message inform the player that irrigation is required. Just a thought.

(0000017)
jfs (reporter)
2010-04-01 15:00

I get this message when trying to build a farm under those conditions:

No mud for underground farm
Mud is left by water

(0000023)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 15:38
edited on: 2010-04-01 15:46

Placing a farm on rock
     Needs Soil or mud
     No Mud for underground farm
     Mud is left by water

Placing a farm on surface soil
    No Mud for underground farm
    Mud is left by water

Placing a farm on mud found in an underground complex
    <<Works fine, no warning message>>

So this is either a major bug, or a mechanics change and a minor text inconsistency.

(0000039)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-01 17:27

Confirmed from the forums, this is a bug. you are supposed to be able to plant in dry soil.

(0003229)
danielzklein (reporter)
2010-04-13 02:58

DoctorZuber, do you have a link for this being confirmed? Toady sounds confused in the thread for 0.31.03: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=54115.msg1161513#msg1161513 [^]

I think what we need is confirmation that you should still be able to plant on underground clay without first having to spill water over it. If so, there's a major bug here. If not, there's a major change in mechanic that was not announced.

(0003460)
Draco18s (reporter)
2010-04-14 08:26

It didn't sound confused to me, what it sounded like was that he wasn't sure he wanted to let underground plants grow on soil layers because it encouraged dwarves to migrate away from mountains.

I will, however, point out that an embark location needs at least one non-mountain embark tile to be embarkable, and dwarves do require wood (and a wooded biome has soil layers).

(0003691)
additionofzeroes (reporter)
2010-04-15 09:01

I thought in all previous versions, you could never plant in loam, silty loam, sandy loam or loamy sand without irrigation. Isn't this the case? "Loam" types aren't treated as "soil", although "sand" is.

(0003704)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-04-15 09:50

nope, don't have a link. if this is a mechanics change I'm not personally bothered too much by this one, I'm used to irrigating quickly anyhow, I'm typically irrigated and running before spring is over.

If it is an intended mechanics change though the warning messages when planting are wrong. So in that case, it's a text bug. Either way you read this it needs an open ticket.

(0003822)
garrieirons (reporter)
2010-04-16 03:27

The biggest issue is, this would make deserts & other waterless maps "totally unplayable" rather than "difficult".

(0003828)
derigo (reporter)
2010-04-16 05:20

Untrue, you can always get water from the underground features. That sounds totally inline with the expected difficulty of playing on a waterless map. If anything, its too easy.

(0004234)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-04-19 08:40

Yea, I'd really like for farms to be buildable on dry soil......

(0004702)
Granite26 (reporter)
2010-04-23 05:49

Or possibly a 'by plant' setting

(0008004)
Jon-Ace (reporter)
2010-06-09 13:31

Still in 0.31.06, still game-breaking.

(0008151)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-06-11 11:00

Could we get this stickied please?

(0008227)
Psiborg (reporter)
2010-06-12 16:30

Being a new player this bug is basically ruining the game for me...its complicated enough to learn. I understand some people think the adds to a game and i suppose it might a bit, but its just too tough for me to learn to play a game with all my dwarfs starving to death.

(0008238)
DoctorZuber (reporter)
2010-06-12 19:44

The difference here is that you can't plant dry soil suddenly which is an unexpected mechanics change. Also, the text messages you get when placing a farm disagree with this mechanics change in that they say you can plant in mud OR soil.

So starting out did just get a bit harder. I also find that farming produces a lot less food than it used to which I've complained about in another bug report here.

With both of these things working against you, it is certainly a bit more challenging to get a fortress going in the early days. I certainly wouldn't want to be a noob to DF right now with all the bugs that are floating around in the air right now.

(0008242)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-06-12 20:54

Theres also the fact that it reportedly claims that surface farms need mud, but yet they'll work fine without mud.

As for the bugs, this one is probably the most crippling to newbs to DF.

(0008248)
paladin_of_light (reporter)
2010-06-12 23:54

The text for the surface is "No mud for underground farm" it's not underground, but arguably the text shouldn't appear because it's confusing. The text is inconsistent though.

(0008519)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-06-15 11:19

Not to mention theres other wierdness involving mud and farms.

Also, subliminal bump! :)

(0009076)
Executer (reporter)
2010-06-25 04:04

I don't mind the change, but I can see why some people do. Unless there's literally no water (not even 1 murky pool), you can struggle through on one farm plot until you get deeper. It simply forces you to dig deeper if you're on a map with no water, to reach underground lakes/rivers.

Underground farms require water, which forms mud. I've never had the mud disclaimer when building a surface farm; they've always worked fine on soil for me.

Ideally we'd see some kind of compromise, if this is an intended mechanic change; ie. able to be planted on dry soil, but grows half as fast if not muddied.

(0009200)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-06-27 23:31

What about allowing farms to be built anywhere, including even on dry cavern floors, but then allow irrigation to be an option. Irrigation would be sort of like fertilizing the farm, except done with water via buckets.

As you are pretty much guaranteed to have access to water on any map if you dig down enough this shouldn't be game breaking, and it would be interesting to have water be an important part of farming as an ongoing thing rather than just a one time deal up front.

Currently if you get something muddy, it will remain muddy after no water touches it for decades on end.

(0009201)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-06-28 00:06

@Hyndis: In other words, make it like it was in 40D. Except for the farming on dry rock though as that doesn't make much sense, unless you're trying to cultivate some extremely hardy alpine plants or something.

(0009244)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-06-28 09:06

Requiring irrigation would be an interesting twist, so while you can build a farm on dry ground its still not going to grow anything until you order it irrigated, which could be done by bucket brigade to drop water directly onto the farm tiles. Would also make things a bit easier. You need access to water either way, just with the bucket it could be applied directly to the ground rather than flooding a cavern and hoping for the best.

(0009732)
Jinalealia (reporter)
2010-07-07 10:09

I'm using vanilla 0.31.08, and I also received the "no seeds available for this location" when I used q to highlight one of my farm plots. I built the farm plot on a lower level that had been channeled out to make it open to the light. I also flooded it with a nearby murky pool just to be safe. Now, I also had some underground, dark farm plots that had been irrigated that were planting just fine, so I looked around to try to figure out why I wouldn't have any seeds. That's when I realized that the plants I had designated to be gathered never were due to the skill not being toggled on for one of my dwarfs. After some plants were gathered and seeds made then I was given the option to plant those plots. Since we only have the option of taking underground seeds at embark, not having seeds to plant an above ground plot is perfectly acceptable. That part of this post is then not a bug.

(0010240)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-07-14 09:11

Toady, any updates on this or what?

I mean the part about not being able to farm on dry soil underground.

(0010492)
G-Flex (reporter)
2010-07-17 08:19

Wait, why is this listed as a bug? You're not *supposed* to be able to farm on dry soil a single floor thick underground.

(0010495)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-07-17 08:54

Maybe not that particular part since it makes logical sense, but what about the first or second z-level of soil? Even with a z-level or more worth of soil under the underground plot, you can't farm without mud. That part of the whole thing is the bug here.

(0010868)
Hieronymous Alloy (reporter)
2010-07-23 06:35

From Toady on the Forum:

[quote]
I'm not sure yet. I never get a chance to look at it, despite wanting to look at it. The original idea was to require a soil wall beneath a mudless square for it to be farmable, and if it isn't that way, it's a bug. Either way, it is somewhat confusing, because you wouldn't be able to farm in one layer of soil. I'm not sure you should be able to, morally speaking, especially with the underground trees, but it's probably less confusing that way.[/quote]

(0012002)
knofbath (reporter)
2010-08-22 04:09

I guess what I'd like to see is to take away the irrigation requirement for the plump helmets, also it'd be nice to task irrigation from the farm itself. And to compensate, let irrigation be an annual thing for the cash crops.

Plump Helmet's at least should be plantable in low soil condition. Mushrooms do grow in caves after all. And the dwarfs need a stable low value crop that can be grown in any biome, the irrigation thing complicates this enormously. The game I'm running now is in a desert biome, and the only available water is in a cavern 40 Z-levels down. I had a try at irrigation, even with 3 pond zones set up, my dwarves were barely able to irrigate a 9x9 room, and this took maybe a year of game time. Plus every irrigation technique I've seen uses up 2 z-levels of space, making initial fort design a real pain.

(0012036)
Shurhaian (reporter)
2010-08-23 05:13

Mushrooms may grow in caves, but these are huge mushrooms that have enough nutrition to be viable meals in themselves. Needing a little more work is not unreasonable.

But it would be nice if it worked as intended, that is, the tile underneath(the substance of the floor?) can be considered arable soil.

(0012794)
Ryke (reporter)
2010-09-18 13:36

0.38.13 still doesn't appear to have solved this bug. I agree that at least plump helmets should be easily farmable on underground soil without additional requirements, but it would make sense for Toady to add more requirements, including irrigation, to many crops.

(0012796)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-09-18 14:11

I've tested embarking in an area with multiple soil layers and trying to build a farm plot on tiles that had unmined soil walls directly beneath them, but it did not permit planting anything, so this is still broken.

Note that this behavior does work correctly for subterranean trees and shrubs.

(0013028)
Malibu Stacey (reporter)
2010-09-27 15:24

Unsurprisingly still broken in 31.14. Dug out a area in a soil layer (sand) which had at least 3, possibly 4 untouched soil (sand & black sand) layers underneath it, built a farm plot & I still get the "no seeds available" message for the farm plot. Removing the farm plot, irrigating the area then rebuilding the farm plot makes it work as expected.

(0013212)
smjjames (reporter)
2010-10-05 10:44

I wonder when Toady is getting to this... I mean he is working on farming sprawl right now.

(0013412)
Corew (reporter)
2010-10-19 04:19

Ok i just installed 31.16 . I prepared a underground area, flooded, then constructed a few farm plots

I planted around 20 sweet pods in 1 of them... and all dissapeared when the station changed... I believe only sweet pods dissapeared, as i planted a few other stuff. It happened to me also some other game, but i believe only in my first year.

Not sure if a bug or WAD but found this similar place to report.

(0013838)
cooky173 (reporter)
2010-11-14 16:14

Corew, if the season changes and the plants can't be grown in new season they all die.

I believe the dwarves used to not plant seeds if they wouldn't have time to grow, but they don't seem to do this anymore.

(0014339)
Corona688 (reporter)
2010-12-01 06:39

For those who don't consider this a bug, try planting on brook tiles. That's right, you have to water THE BROOK to plant on it. Bug!

(0014340)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-12-01 06:59

Corona688: brook tiles are always above ground, so it's not really relevant. Plus, planting seeds in a brook doesn't work logically either, since the water would just wash them away.

(0014795)
Diakron (reporter)
2011-01-05 19:15

People keep say this is a "Game breaking bug" but is A) rather realistic B) not that big of a problem, even is deserts, which now are actually kinda difficult (As opposed to being choice Environs in D40)

(0015183)
Malibu Stacey (reporter)
2011-02-17 06:49

Apparently this is back to 40d mechanics in 0.31.19

(0015220)
EyeMWing (reporter)
2011-02-17 18:20

Irrigation is no longer needed for planting on soil.

Which is entirely because I set up my initial farming operations with irrigation plumbing.

(0015384)
Dwarfu (manager)
2011-02-21 22:02

I've been checking a few different worlds and embark sites and this is no longer an issue.

The plots built under those conditions correctly display all plantable plants, even if no seeds are avaialable.

(0015385)
Dwarfu (manager)
2011-02-21 22:02

Related issues still need to be reviewed.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-01 14:20	Dwarfu	New Issue
2010-04-01 14:33	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000008
2010-04-01 14:54	Avalkia	Note Added: 0000015
2010-04-01 15:00	jfs	Note Added: 0000017
2010-04-01 15:38	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000023
2010-04-01 15:45	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0000023	View Revisions
2010-04-01 15:45	DoctorZuber	Note Deleted: 0000008
2010-04-01 15:46	DoctorZuber	Note Edited: 0000023	View Revisions
2010-04-01 17:27	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0000039
2010-04-02 05:49	Todestool	Tag Attached: farming
2010-04-03 09:13	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000102
2010-04-03 17:53	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000334
2010-04-04 18:27	madjoe5	Issue Monitored: madjoe5
2010-04-05 13:08	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0000509
2010-04-06 09:59	Justice	Issue Monitored: Justice
2010-04-07 05:54	lorb	Issue Monitored: lorb
2010-04-07 15:05	Phydaux	Issue Monitored: Phydaux
2010-04-09 07:12	Dame de la Licorne	Issue Monitored: Dame de la Licorne
2010-04-10 05:44	darknerr	Issue Monitored: darknerr
2010-04-10 11:04	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000555
2010-04-12 18:55	Andir	Issue Monitored: Andir
2010-04-13 02:58	danielzklein	Note Added: 0003229
2010-04-13 02:59	danielzklein	Issue Monitored: danielzklein
2010-04-13 06:22	HazelrahBL	Issue Monitored: HazelrahBL
2010-04-14 07:48	Andir	Issue End Monitor: Andir
2010-04-14 08:26	Draco18s	Note Added: 0003460
2010-04-14 08:37	simrobert	Issue Monitored: simrobert
2010-04-15 09:01	additionofzeroes	Note Added: 0003691
2010-04-15 09:50	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0003704
2010-04-16 03:27	garrieirons	Note Added: 0003822
2010-04-16 04:08	wagawaga	Issue Monitored: wagawaga
2010-04-16 05:20	derigo	Note Added: 0003828
2010-04-19 08:26	Conti	Issue Monitored: Conti
2010-04-19 08:40	smjjames	Note Added: 0004234
2010-04-19 08:41	smjjames	Issue Monitored: smjjames
2010-04-19 09:26	smjjames	Tag Attached: farm
2010-04-23 05:49	Granite26	Note Added: 0004702
2010-04-23 07:20	Kennel	Tag Attached: underground
2010-04-29 13:30	Footkerchief	Category	General => Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Farming/Farmer's Workshop
2010-05-01 20:45	Shukaro	Issue Monitored: Shukaro
2010-05-02 18:17	Skandraken	Issue Monitored: Skandraken
2010-05-03 08:32	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0001717
2010-05-03 08:32	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0001717
2010-05-05 13:43	EverardXavier	Issue Monitored: EverardXavier
2010-05-12 17:26	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0001720
2010-05-12 17:26	Logical2u	Issue Monitored: Footkerchief
2010-06-09 13:31	Jon-Ace	Note Added: 0008004
2010-06-11 11:00	smjjames	Note Added: 0008151
2010-06-11 12:08	Footkerchief	Sticky Issue	No => Yes
2010-06-12 16:30	Psiborg	Note Added: 0008227
2010-06-12 19:44	DoctorZuber	Note Added: 0008238
2010-06-12 20:54	smjjames	Note Added: 0008242
2010-06-12 22:08	Hieronymous Alloy	Issue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2010-06-12 23:54	paladin_of_light	Note Added: 0008248
2010-06-15 11:19	smjjames	Note Added: 0008519
2010-06-17 09:31	Xan	Issue Monitored: Xan
2010-06-25 04:04	Executer	Note Added: 0009076
2010-06-27 23:31	hyndis	Note Added: 0009200
2010-06-28 00:06	smjjames	Note Added: 0009201
2010-06-28 09:06	hyndis	Note Added: 0009244
2010-06-29 10:15	bicker x 2	Issue Monitored: bicker x 2
2010-07-04 07:35	smjjames	Issue End Monitor: smjjames
2010-07-04 07:35	smjjames	Issue Monitored: smjjames
2010-07-07 02:09	alexleon	Issue Monitored: alexleon
2010-07-07 10:09	Jinalealia	Note Added: 0009732
2010-07-07 10:09	Jinalealia	Issue Monitored: Jinalealia
2010-07-09 11:31	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000238
2010-07-11 22:18	wgrubbs	Issue Monitored: wgrubbs
2010-07-11 22:18	wgrubbs	Issue End Monitor: wgrubbs
2010-07-12 03:27	RossM	Issue Monitored: RossM
2010-07-14 09:11	smjjames	Note Added: 0010240
2010-07-14 09:56	JZE	Issue Monitored: JZE
2010-07-14 13:43	Catyrpelius	Issue Monitored: Catyrpelius
2010-07-17 08:19	G-Flex	Note Added: 0010492
2010-07-17 08:54	smjjames	Note Added: 0010495
2010-07-23 06:35	Hieronymous Alloy	Note Added: 0010868
2010-07-24 10:38	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000087
2010-07-24 10:40	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002465
2010-07-24 10:41	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0002210
2010-08-01 06:59	smjjames	Tag Attached: mud
2010-08-03 20:24	Socharis	Issue Monitored: Socharis
2010-08-05 18:08	HebaruSan	Issue Monitored: HebaruSan
2010-08-18 16:40	Logical2u	Relationship added	related to 0002912
2010-08-22 00:54	Ragepyro	Issue Monitored: Ragepyro
2010-08-22 04:09	knofbath	Note Added: 0012002
2010-08-23 05:13	Shurhaian	Note Added: 0012036
2010-08-23 05:14	Shurhaian	Issue Monitored: Shurhaian
2010-08-24 22:48	kuketski	Issue Monitored: kuketski
2010-09-09 18:52	Naros	Issue Monitored: Naros
2010-09-18 13:29	Ryke	Tag Attached: soil
2010-09-18 13:36	Ryke	Note Added: 0012794
2010-09-18 14:11	Quietust	Note Added: 0012796
2010-09-19 08:01	quartic	Issue Monitored: quartic
2010-09-27 15:24	Malibu Stacey	Note Added: 0013028
2010-09-28 08:45	schm0	Issue Monitored: schm0
2010-10-05 10:44	smjjames	Note Added: 0013212
2010-10-06 16:34	bnrubin	Issue Monitored: bnrubin
2010-10-08 18:23	me1	Issue Monitored: me1
2010-10-18 07:03	Superbest	Issue Monitored: Superbest
2010-10-19 04:19	Corew	Note Added: 0013412
2010-11-03 14:06	jwest23	Issue Monitored: jwest23
2010-11-12 21:19	rinosaniol	Issue Monitored: rinosaniol
2010-11-14 16:14	cooky173	Note Added: 0013838
2010-12-01 06:39	Corona688	Note Added: 0014339
2010-12-01 06:59	Quietust	Note Added: 0014340
2011-01-05 19:15	Diakron	Note Added: 0014795
2011-02-17 06:49	Malibu Stacey	Note Added: 0015183
2011-02-17 07:07	Kogut	Tag Attached: fixed?
2011-02-17 18:20	EyeMWing	Note Added: 0015220
2011-02-19 06:00	Dwarfu	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.31.19?
2011-02-19 06:00	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: fixed?
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0015384
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Status	new => resolved
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Fixed in Version	=> 0.31.19
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Resolution	open => fixed
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Assigned To	=> Dwarfu
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0015385
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Status	resolved => assigned
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Assigned To	Dwarfu => Toady One
2011-02-21 22:02	Dwarfu	Status	assigned => resolved
2011-02-22 03:37	RossM	Issue End Monitor: RossM
2011-02-22 12:59	madjoe5	Issue End Monitor: madjoe5
2011-03-02 14:31	Naros	Issue End Monitor: Naros
2011-03-06 02:59	Conti	Issue End Monitor: Conti
2011-03-14 09:52	Footkerchief	Issue End Monitor: Footkerchief
2011-03-14 09:52	Footkerchief	Sticky Issue	Yes => No
2011-03-21 12:54	Dame de la Licorne	Issue End Monitor: Dame de la Licorne
2011-08-07 14:48	Justice	Issue End Monitor: Justice
2012-03-04 08:02	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: Fixed in 0.31.19?
2012-03-07 06:50	lorb	Issue End Monitor: lorb
2014-08-04 08:33	smjjames	Issue End Monitor: smjjames

Notes
(0000015) Avalkia (reporter) 2010-04-01 14:54	In that case, I humbly suggest that the message inform the player that irrigation is required. Just a thought.

(0000017) jfs (reporter) 2010-04-01 15:00	I get this message when trying to build a farm under those conditions: No mud for underground farm Mud is left by water

(0000023) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-01 15:38 edited on: 2010-04-01 15:46	Placing a farm on rock Needs Soil or mud No Mud for underground farm Mud is left by water Placing a farm on surface soil No Mud for underground farm Mud is left by water Placing a farm on mud found in an underground complex <<Works fine, no warning message>> So this is either a major bug, or a mechanics change and a minor text inconsistency.

(0000039) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-01 17:27	Confirmed from the forums, this is a bug. you are supposed to be able to plant in dry soil.

(0003229) danielzklein (reporter) 2010-04-13 02:58	DoctorZuber, do you have a link for this being confirmed? Toady sounds confused in the thread for 0.31.03: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=54115.msg1161513#msg1161513 [^] I think what we need is confirmation that you should still be able to plant on underground clay without first having to spill water over it. If so, there's a major bug here. If not, there's a major change in mechanic that was not announced.

(0003460) Draco18s (reporter) 2010-04-14 08:26	It didn't sound confused to me, what it sounded like was that he wasn't sure he wanted to let underground plants grow on soil layers because it encouraged dwarves to migrate away from mountains. I will, however, point out that an embark location needs at least one non-mountain embark tile to be embarkable, and dwarves do require wood (and a wooded biome has soil layers).

(0003691) additionofzeroes (reporter) 2010-04-15 09:01	I thought in all previous versions, you could never plant in loam, silty loam, sandy loam or loamy sand without irrigation. Isn't this the case? "Loam" types aren't treated as "soil", although "sand" is.

(0003704) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-04-15 09:50	nope, don't have a link. if this is a mechanics change I'm not personally bothered too much by this one, I'm used to irrigating quickly anyhow, I'm typically irrigated and running before spring is over. If it is an intended mechanics change though the warning messages when planting are wrong. So in that case, it's a text bug. Either way you read this it needs an open ticket.

(0003822) garrieirons (reporter) 2010-04-16 03:27	The biggest issue is, this would make deserts & other waterless maps "totally unplayable" rather than "difficult".

(0003828) derigo (reporter) 2010-04-16 05:20	Untrue, you can always get water from the underground features. That sounds totally inline with the expected difficulty of playing on a waterless map. If anything, its too easy.

(0004234) smjjames (reporter) 2010-04-19 08:40	Yea, I'd really like for farms to be buildable on dry soil......

(0004702) Granite26 (reporter) 2010-04-23 05:49	Or possibly a 'by plant' setting

(0008004) Jon-Ace (reporter) 2010-06-09 13:31	Still in 0.31.06, still game-breaking.

(0008151) smjjames (reporter) 2010-06-11 11:00	Could we get this stickied please?

(0008227) Psiborg (reporter) 2010-06-12 16:30	Being a new player this bug is basically ruining the game for me...its complicated enough to learn. I understand some people think the adds to a game and i suppose it might a bit, but its just too tough for me to learn to play a game with all my dwarfs starving to death.

(0008238) DoctorZuber (reporter) 2010-06-12 19:44	The difference here is that you can't plant dry soil suddenly which is an unexpected mechanics change. Also, the text messages you get when placing a farm disagree with this mechanics change in that they say you can plant in mud OR soil. So starting out did just get a bit harder. I also find that farming produces a lot less food than it used to which I've complained about in another bug report here. With both of these things working against you, it is certainly a bit more challenging to get a fortress going in the early days. I certainly wouldn't want to be a noob to DF right now with all the bugs that are floating around in the air right now.

(0008242) smjjames (reporter) 2010-06-12 20:54	Theres also the fact that it reportedly claims that surface farms need mud, but yet they'll work fine without mud. As for the bugs, this one is probably the most crippling to newbs to DF.

(0008248) paladin_of_light (reporter) 2010-06-12 23:54	The text for the surface is "No mud for underground farm" it's not underground, but arguably the text shouldn't appear because it's confusing. The text is inconsistent though.

(0008519) smjjames (reporter) 2010-06-15 11:19	Not to mention theres other wierdness involving mud and farms. Also, subliminal bump! :)

(0009076) Executer (reporter) 2010-06-25 04:04	I don't mind the change, but I can see why some people do. Unless there's literally no water (not even 1 murky pool), you can struggle through on one farm plot until you get deeper. It simply forces you to dig deeper if you're on a map with no water, to reach underground lakes/rivers. Underground farms require water, which forms mud. I've never had the mud disclaimer when building a surface farm; they've always worked fine on soil for me. Ideally we'd see some kind of compromise, if this is an intended mechanic change; ie. able to be planted on dry soil, but grows half as fast if not muddied.

(0009200) hyndis (reporter) 2010-06-27 23:31	What about allowing farms to be built anywhere, including even on dry cavern floors, but then allow irrigation to be an option. Irrigation would be sort of like fertilizing the farm, except done with water via buckets. As you are pretty much guaranteed to have access to water on any map if you dig down enough this shouldn't be game breaking, and it would be interesting to have water be an important part of farming as an ongoing thing rather than just a one time deal up front. Currently if you get something muddy, it will remain muddy after no water touches it for decades on end.

(0009201) smjjames (reporter) 2010-06-28 00:06	@Hyndis: In other words, make it like it was in 40D. Except for the farming on dry rock though as that doesn't make much sense, unless you're trying to cultivate some extremely hardy alpine plants or something.

(0009244) hyndis (reporter) 2010-06-28 09:06	Requiring irrigation would be an interesting twist, so while you can build a farm on dry ground its still not going to grow anything until you order it irrigated, which could be done by bucket brigade to drop water directly onto the farm tiles. Would also make things a bit easier. You need access to water either way, just with the bucket it could be applied directly to the ground rather than flooding a cavern and hoping for the best.

(0009732) Jinalealia (reporter) 2010-07-07 10:09	I'm using vanilla 0.31.08, and I also received the "no seeds available for this location" when I used q to highlight one of my farm plots. I built the farm plot on a lower level that had been channeled out to make it open to the light. I also flooded it with a nearby murky pool just to be safe. Now, I also had some underground, dark farm plots that had been irrigated that were planting just fine, so I looked around to try to figure out why I wouldn't have any seeds. That's when I realized that the plants I had designated to be gathered never were due to the skill not being toggled on for one of my dwarfs. After some plants were gathered and seeds made then I was given the option to plant those plots. Since we only have the option of taking underground seeds at embark, not having seeds to plant an above ground plot is perfectly acceptable. That part of this post is then not a bug.

(0010240) smjjames (reporter) 2010-07-14 09:11	Toady, any updates on this or what? I mean the part about not being able to farm on dry soil underground.

(0010492) G-Flex (reporter) 2010-07-17 08:19	Wait, why is this listed as a bug? You're not supposed to be able to farm on dry soil a single floor thick underground.

(0010495) smjjames (reporter) 2010-07-17 08:54	Maybe not that particular part since it makes logical sense, but what about the first or second z-level of soil? Even with a z-level or more worth of soil under the underground plot, you can't farm without mud. That part of the whole thing is the bug here.

(0010868) Hieronymous Alloy (reporter) 2010-07-23 06:35	From Toady on the Forum: [quote] I'm not sure yet. I never get a chance to look at it, despite wanting to look at it. The original idea was to require a soil wall beneath a mudless square for it to be farmable, and if it isn't that way, it's a bug. Either way, it is somewhat confusing, because you wouldn't be able to farm in one layer of soil. I'm not sure you should be able to, morally speaking, especially with the underground trees, but it's probably less confusing that way.[/quote]

(0012002) knofbath (reporter) 2010-08-22 04:09	I guess what I'd like to see is to take away the irrigation requirement for the plump helmets, also it'd be nice to task irrigation from the farm itself. And to compensate, let irrigation be an annual thing for the cash crops. Plump Helmet's at least should be plantable in low soil condition. Mushrooms do grow in caves after all. And the dwarfs need a stable low value crop that can be grown in any biome, the irrigation thing complicates this enormously. The game I'm running now is in a desert biome, and the only available water is in a cavern 40 Z-levels down. I had a try at irrigation, even with 3 pond zones set up, my dwarves were barely able to irrigate a 9x9 room, and this took maybe a year of game time. Plus every irrigation technique I've seen uses up 2 z-levels of space, making initial fort design a real pain.

(0012036) Shurhaian (reporter) 2010-08-23 05:13	Mushrooms may grow in caves, but these are huge mushrooms that have enough nutrition to be viable meals in themselves. Needing a little more work is not unreasonable. But it would be nice if it worked as intended, that is, the tile underneath(the substance of the floor?) can be considered arable soil.

(0012794) Ryke (reporter) 2010-09-18 13:36	0.38.13 still doesn't appear to have solved this bug. I agree that at least plump helmets should be easily farmable on underground soil without additional requirements, but it would make sense for Toady to add more requirements, including irrigation, to many crops.

(0012796) Quietust (reporter) 2010-09-18 14:11	I've tested embarking in an area with multiple soil layers and trying to build a farm plot on tiles that had unmined soil walls directly beneath them, but it did not permit planting anything, so this is still broken. Note that this behavior does work correctly for subterranean trees and shrubs.

(0013028) Malibu Stacey (reporter) 2010-09-27 15:24	Unsurprisingly still broken in 31.14. Dug out a area in a soil layer (sand) which had at least 3, possibly 4 untouched soil (sand & black sand) layers underneath it, built a farm plot & I still get the "no seeds available" message for the farm plot. Removing the farm plot, irrigating the area then rebuilding the farm plot makes it work as expected.

(0013212) smjjames (reporter) 2010-10-05 10:44	I wonder when Toady is getting to this... I mean he is working on farming sprawl right now.

(0013412) Corew (reporter) 2010-10-19 04:19	Ok i just installed 31.16 . I prepared a underground area, flooded, then constructed a few farm plots I planted around 20 sweet pods in 1 of them... and all dissapeared when the station changed... I believe only sweet pods dissapeared, as i planted a few other stuff. It happened to me also some other game, but i believe only in my first year. Not sure if a bug or WAD but found this similar place to report.

(0013838) cooky173 (reporter) 2010-11-14 16:14	Corew, if the season changes and the plants can't be grown in new season they all die. I believe the dwarves used to not plant seeds if they wouldn't have time to grow, but they don't seem to do this anymore.

(0014339) Corona688 (reporter) 2010-12-01 06:39	For those who don't consider this a bug, try planting on brook tiles. That's right, you have to water THE BROOK to plant on it. Bug!

(0014340) Quietust (reporter) 2010-12-01 06:59	Corona688: brook tiles are always above ground, so it's not really relevant. Plus, planting seeds in a brook doesn't work logically either, since the water would just wash them away.

(0014795) Diakron (reporter) 2011-01-05 19:15	People keep say this is a "Game breaking bug" but is A) rather realistic B) not that big of a problem, even is deserts, which now are actually kinda difficult (As opposed to being choice Environs in D40)

(0015183) Malibu Stacey (reporter) 2011-02-17 06:49	Apparently this is back to 40d mechanics in 0.31.19

(0015220) EyeMWing (reporter) 2011-02-17 18:20	Irrigation is no longer needed for planting on soil. Which is entirely because I set up my initial farming operations with irrigation plumbing.

(0015384) Dwarfu (manager) 2011-02-21 22:02	I've been checking a few different worlds and embark sites and this is no longer an issue. The plots built under those conditions correctly display all plantable plants, even if no seeds are avaialable.

(0015385) Dwarfu (manager) 2011-02-21 22:02	Related issues still need to be reviewed.