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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0001829Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Skills and Professionspublic2010-05-10 16:062010-09-15 14:54
Assigned ToToady One 
StatusresolvedResolutionno change required 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.31.03 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.31.11 
Summary0001829: Dwarf skills decrease rapidly without use.
DescriptionMy dwarfs skills seem to decrease rapidly without use. I had several near-legendary dwarfs of various professions who have minimal skill levels after a few years of unuse.
Tagsdecay, skills
Attached Files

- Relationships
has duplicate 0002635resolvedLogical2u Medical skills rusting very fast. 
related to 0000803resolvedToady One Civilian jobs don't use attributes, so civilians all get weak over time 

-  Notes
Beeskee (reporter)
2010-05-10 16:07

I searched for skills and skill before posting this and didn't see a similar issue, though I may have missed it. If so, sorry. :)
Malicus (reporter)
2010-05-10 16:40

I'm told that stats seem to rot far too quickly, too. Maybe these two things are related?
Beeskee (reporter)
2010-05-10 21:50

Possibly. It could also lead to other things such as slower skill/stat gain if the decrease is almost as fast as the increase.
albatross (reporter)
2010-06-04 14:28

(Rambling follows, bear with me)

Yes. Skills AND attributes (strength, memory, etc.) decay over time. This is by design. However, there's nothing you can do about it. No amount of raw-file editing will help. See the issue 0000803. Rumor has it that physical attributes CAN increase through military training. Everything else (attributes) just goes down over time, no matter what you assign them to do.

Skills: increase and decrease over time
Attributes: only decrease over time, never increase (with few possible exceptions)

Now, I don't know if there's a link between attribute scores and skill gain rates, but if there is, the consequences are pretty serious, improvement-wise. I mean, if a dwarf with higher Memory remembers stuff longer than the other dwarves, and since Memory is an attribute and it can only go down... you probably see where this goes. In short, your dwarves might lose skills at an increasing rate over time, as well as gain skills at an ever slower rate over time (assuming attribute scores affect skill gain/decay rates)

I suppose that to fix this, Toady would need to place a limit on how much a dwarf can forget, and then actually make the attributes umm increasable? I wouldn't mind getting actual control over the gain/decay rates through raw-file editing either.
hyndis (reporter)
2010-06-30 09:04

If attributes were linked to be improved with skills this shouldn't be an issue. Right now you can have a dwarf who is legendary+5 in a dozen different skills and still have the minimum attributes possible for a dwarf. Slow, weak, frail, confused, stupid. :(
cephalo (reporter)
2010-07-12 05:27
edited on: 2010-07-12 12:16

Skill rusting sounds realistic in theory, but gameplay wise it just means that you have more chores to remember to make sure your armorer makes one metal cap per year, ad nauseum for each profession.

Furthermore, professions differ greatly regarding how much labor is needed for gameplay. How often do you need a clothier? Never? How often do you need a blacksmith? Once in ten years? How do I prevent my medical dwarves from losing skills? Injure people on purpose?

Skill rusting can cause problems, while the only gameplay solution for skill rust is busy work. Why not just pretend that dwarves keep their skills up in other ways?

Toady One (administrator)
2010-07-14 08:58

I let it sit for a year, and it's still working about like I expect -- a Master miner accumulated 4 levels of rust and no permanent demotion (and wasn't slated for a single level demotion for another 3 years). The rust was worked off after mining 4 walls. For a similar craftsdwarf, I think it would be a few crafted items of somewhat lower quality before being back at peak performance, maybe just one. If I remember, 'v' wasn't showing rust at all in 0.31.03, so I'm not sure where you were seeing the lower values (unless it was in the noble screen or the military screen, where rust was being subtracted). I'm going to change the display in 'v' a bit to separate the rust out, which should make the (rare) permanent demotions more clear.
Footkerchief (manager)
2010-07-19 11:22

Reminder sent to: Toady One

Hey Toady -- cephalo's note at 0002635:0010657 mentions that the medical professions are disproportionately affected by skill rust, due to the difficulty of training dwarves in those skills. I don't know whether that moves this report into "bug" territory for you.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2010-05-10 16:06 Beeskee New Issue
2010-05-10 16:07 Beeskee Note Added: 0006516
2010-05-10 16:40 Malicus Note Added: 0006518
2010-05-10 18:07 Footkerchief Relationship added related to 0000803
2010-05-10 21:50 Beeskee Note Added: 0006537
2010-06-04 14:28 albatross Note Added: 0007676
2010-06-04 16:50 Nabeshin Issue Monitored: Nabeshin
2010-06-30 08:05 Hieronymous Alloy Issue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2010-06-30 08:05 smjjames Issue Monitored: smjjames
2010-06-30 08:11 Threlicus Issue Monitored: Threlicus
2010-06-30 09:04 hyndis Note Added: 0009372
2010-07-07 02:09 alexleon Issue Monitored: alexleon
2010-07-11 09:55 Profligate Issue Monitored: Profligate
2010-07-11 15:05 Logical2u Relationship added parent of 0002635
2010-07-12 05:27 cephalo Note Added: 0010020
2010-07-12 06:45 TomiTapio Tag Attached: decoration
2010-07-12 06:45 TomiTapio Tag Attached: skills
2010-07-12 06:45 TomiTapio Tag Detached: decoration
2010-07-12 06:55 TomiTapio Tag Attached: decay
2010-07-12 12:16 cephalo Note Edited: 0010020 View Revisions
2010-07-12 15:43 Logical2u Relationship replaced has duplicate 0002635
2010-07-12 15:43 Logical2u Issue Monitored: Logical2u
2010-07-14 08:58 Toady One Note Added: 0010239
2010-07-14 08:58 Toady One Status new => resolved
2010-07-14 08:58 Toady One Fixed in Version => 0.31.11
2010-07-14 08:58 Toady One Resolution open => no change required
2010-07-14 08:58 Toady One Assigned To => Toady One
2010-07-14 09:00 smjjames Issue End Monitor: smjjames
2010-07-15 19:34 Logical2u Issue End Monitor: Logical2u
2010-07-19 11:22 Footkerchief Note Added: 0010659
2010-07-20 12:58 Hieronymous Alloy Issue End Monitor: Hieronymous Alloy
2010-07-21 09:07 Profligate Issue End Monitor: Profligate
2010-07-25 05:05 alexleon Issue End Monitor: alexleon
2010-07-26 05:38 Threlicus Issue End Monitor: Threlicus
2010-09-15 14:54 Nabeshin Issue End Monitor: Nabeshin

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