0002780: Pond/pool populations (e.g. pond turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct

(0010802)
cephalo (reporter)
2010-07-21 20:51

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2759 [^]

Here is a save for a different bug but it also has no turtles.

(0010806)
Nimrod (reporter)
2010-07-22 01:51

confirmed.
turtles, once they are all fished, wont regenerate.

(0010809)
cephalo (reporter)
2010-07-22 05:23

There are some pools in the southern part of my map where the turtles came from, and they are definately still fishable because I've designated a fishing spot and I've seen fish taken there, just no turtles.

I'm not sure if this is related to 0002015, because I have plenty of fish.

(0011462)
Kumquat (reporter)
2010-08-03 15:20

I've had several forts where fish went completely extinct. Not just turtles. Most recent one was at the crossing of a stream and a brook, but I think it was .07.

I guess that you can empty a whole region of fish, or whatever map unit dwarf mode populations come from. The region was temperate-cold, freezing in winter, so there was at least one full season of no fishing each year.

(0011466)
Quietust (reporter)
2010-08-03 18:41
edited on: 2016-10-16 10:46

This was frequent in 40d as well - after enough fishing, your region would be permanently depleted of aquatic life.

(0011498)
hyndis (reporter)
2010-08-04 11:56

Seen this as well even with large wildlife. Have an old fortress in 31.08 thats some 40 years after embark. All underground wildlife has been wiped out by my military and it appears to be gone forever.

(0016379)
rpetiger (reporter)
2011-03-19 18:08

I have trouble with turtles also. Most time, turtles are not availible at all, yet shells are still needed for moods. My answer was to just modify the raws so I could use bones instead of shells.

(0016947)
Footkerchief (manager)
2011-04-01 12:54

Reminder sent to: cephalo, hyndis, Nimrod, rpetiger

Is anyone still experiencing this bug in worlds generated in 0.31.23+? Closely related bug 0002015 was fixed in that version.

(0017440)
Eskarion (reporter)
2011-04-19 01:17

Happened also in a world created with 32.25. I'm now in year 24 after embark and all fish/turtles in the brook and the pools is gone though I had plenty at the begining.

(0017845)
cephalo (reporter)
2011-05-25 09:29

In a world created with 32.25, I have no fish of any kind after about 20 years.

(0017846)
ponom (reporter)
2011-05-25 13:04
edited on: 2011-05-25 13:07

Playing 32.24 ran out of mussels in brook after ~ 3 years.
It has become extinct.
Although there are some vermin fish seen on the map it says "there's nothing to catch in the river" and in fishing zone it is still "0".
New animal are coming each season/year but not fish.
Playing temperate biome.

Plz check bugged save with no fish although submitted to other bug

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4307 [^]

(0017847)
Quietust (reporter)
2011-05-25 13:20

I assume the above 3 comments meant to refer to 0.31.* rather than 32.*

(0017858)
ponom (reporter)
2011-05-26 11:53

yes. sorry it is 31.24.

just checked once again.

every season in zone fishing value is greater than 0.
dwarf starts fishing, then reports "there is nothing to catch in the river" and fishing value resets.

(0018871)
Kogut (reporter)
2011-10-21 01:55
edited on: 2011-10-22 12:22

It is not limited to turtles, all fish will go extinct (in .25)

(0020923)
robertheinrich (reporter)
2012-02-29 12:27

Having the same problem with .34.04
My fisherdwarves stripped a river of all it had.

Now while I would understand that you can overfish a murky pool (if nothing which could reproduce is left it naturally goes extinct) I think that should not be possible for a river since you would expect new fish coming in from up- or downstream.

(0023222)
toybasher (reporter)
2012-07-13 17:21

.34.11
All fish went completely extinct in the rivers and pools within 5 years.

(0027399)
lethosor (manager)
2014-07-24 05:12
edited on: 2014-07-24 05:13

Given http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2013.html#2013-11-09 [^] , this should be looked into for 0.40.xx.

(0027400)
lethosor (manager)
2014-07-24 05:58

DFHack seems to confirm this, so I'm resolving this issue. If anyone can reproduce it in 0.40.xx, please reopen this report and/or send me a message on the forums.

(0028547)
lethosor (manager)
2014-08-07 17:13
edited on: 2014-08-07 17:21

Reopening.

(0028549)
Loci (manager)
2014-08-07 17:26

I ramped up fishing to test this bug. After many pond turtle roasts (apparently the only species available in my embark), the supply stopped. It has been five in-game years with "nothing to catch"--if the population was refreshing slowly I would expect at least a few new critters to spawn in that time frame.

(0028551)
lethosor (manager)
2014-08-07 17:50

Pond turtles only live in pools, so it could be that only river populations were fixed (which would explain my results). I'll re-title this report again, but feel free to share any additional findings.

(0036019)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2016-11-01 09:01
edited on: 2016-11-01 11:34

Pond turtles lay eggs, which might contribute why they will only breed in off site statistics if that's any relevance.

DF structures used for dfhack only implies that eggs that are hatched go into certain classes, and entity ID is one of them for intelligent species (crow men eggs layed and hatched on site belong to you etc., underground egg laying races have been in constant decline since they were added because of this until recently)

Egg layers have always had a hard time repopulating due to dependency on a object to breed which limited and stagnated them in world gen (made easier by spontaneous population regeneration in world-gen recently). I cannot recollect if its possible to offer pet pond turtles nestboxes to use by pitting or pasturing enough of them in a contained area as a alternative or even if they have additional orientation/marriage barriers to overcome we are not aware of.

All gendered vermin breed (or apparently breed, they have the prequesite animal tags but its uncertain whether they become pregnant whilst in the game world before leaving for the site population tally and being replaced with a new generated creature in their momentary existances, or even if they do become pregnant at all with child/adult born states) hermaphrodital or non-gender typical vermin are usually accounted for by being virtually innumerable to compensate for no breeding on site. Technically if the female pond turtle could get off the map by dissapearing and being replaced whilst pregnant it could spawn additional turtles slowly.

Fish are very visible with ASCII symbols and can be seen in murky ponds and rivers for periods of time if a example is needed, if they are close together they are in the capacity to breed and keep the numbers up. Drop a sizable amount of caught vermin fish into a empty pool and it should sustain the fish in theory as they repopulate with compatible mates in that area.

Similar designs have been used with isolated cave spider rooms with wild vermin which appear to be self sustainable and harvested with burrowed animal trappers & web collectors.

Under 'Cave spider silk farm': http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Silk_farming [^]

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-07-21 20:47	cephalo	New Issue
2010-07-21 20:51	cephalo	Note Added: 0010802
2010-07-21 21:25	Footkerchief	Relationship added	child of 0002015
2010-07-22 01:51	Nimrod	Note Added: 0010806
2010-07-22 05:23	cephalo	Note Added: 0010809
2010-08-03 15:20	Kumquat	Note Added: 0011462
2010-08-03 18:41	Quietust	Note Added: 0011466
2010-08-04 11:56	hyndis	Note Added: 0011498
2010-08-11 08:40	Taranli Maren	Issue Monitored: Taranli Maren
2010-11-10 22:19	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2011-03-19 16:53	Toady One	Relationship replaced	related to 0002015
2011-03-19 18:04	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.31.22?
2011-03-19 18:08	rpetiger	Note Added: 0016379
2011-04-01 12:54	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: hyndis
2011-04-01 12:54	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Nimrod
2011-04-01 12:54	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: rpetiger
2011-04-01 12:54	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0016947
2011-04-01 12:55	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-04-19 01:17	Eskarion	Note Added: 0017440
2011-05-25 09:29	cephalo	Note Added: 0017845
2011-05-25 13:04	ponom	Note Added: 0017846
2011-05-25 13:05	ponom	Issue Monitored: ponom
2011-05-25 13:07	ponom	Note Edited: 0017846	View Revisions
2011-05-25 13:20	Quietust	Note Added: 0017847
2011-05-26 11:53	ponom	Note Added: 0017858
2011-05-26 23:23	zwei	Issue Monitored: zwei
2011-10-21 01:55	Kogut	Note Added: 0018871
2011-10-21 01:55	Kogut	Issue Monitored: Kogut
2011-10-22 12:22	Kogut	Note Edited: 0018871	View Revisions
2012-01-25 12:46	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Save Included
2012-01-25 12:46	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: Fixed in 0.31.22?
2012-01-25 12:46	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2012-02-29 12:27	robertheinrich	Note Added: 0020923
2012-03-04 22:07	etherflan	Issue Monitored: etherflan
2012-03-23 05:01	Buglist	Issue Monitored: Buglist
2012-03-25 19:35	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005703
2012-07-13 17:21	toybasher	Note Added: 0023222
2013-12-07 04:16	Thundercraft	Issue Monitored: Thundercraft
2014-07-24 05:12	lethosor	Note Added: 0027399
2014-07-24 05:13	lethosor	Note Edited: 0027399	View Revisions
2014-07-24 05:13	lethosor	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-07-24 05:16	lethosor	Summary	Turtles went extinct on my map => Aquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish
2014-07-24 05:17	lethosor	Summary	Aquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish => Aquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct
2014-07-24 05:58	lethosor	Note Added: 0027400
2014-07-24 05:58	lethosor	Status	new => resolved
2014-07-24 05:58	lethosor	Fixed in Version	=> 0.40.01
2014-07-24 05:58	lethosor	Resolution	open => fixed
2014-07-24 05:58	lethosor	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2014-08-07 17:07	Loci	Tag Attached: not fixed
2014-08-07 17:13	lethosor	Assigned To	Toady One => lethosor
2014-08-07 17:13	lethosor	Note Added: 0028547
2014-08-07 17:13	lethosor	Status	resolved => needs feedback
2014-08-07 17:13	lethosor	Resolution	fixed => reopened
2014-08-07 17:13	lethosor	Tag Detached: Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-08-07 17:13	lethosor	Tag Detached: not fixed
2014-08-07 17:21	lethosor	Note Edited: 0028547	View Revisions
2014-08-07 17:26	Loci	Note Added: 0028549
2014-08-07 17:50	lethosor	Note Added: 0028551
2014-08-07 17:51	lethosor	Summary	Aquatic populations (fish, turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct => Pond/pool populations (e.g. pond turtles) do not replenish, gradually become extinct
2014-08-07 17:51	lethosor	Status	needs feedback => acknowledged
2015-01-09 19:28	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0004500
2016-08-11 17:51	lethosor	Fixed in Version	0.40.01 =>
2016-10-16 10:46	Quietust	Note Edited: 0011466	View Revisions
2016-11-01 09:01	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036019
2016-11-01 11:30	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0036019	View Revisions
2016-11-01 11:34	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0036019	View Revisions
2017-06-08 19:31	Huntthetroll	Issue Monitored: Huntthetroll

Notes
(0010802) cephalo (reporter) 2010-07-21 20:51	http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2759 [^] Here is a save for a different bug but it also has no turtles.

(0010806) Nimrod (reporter) 2010-07-22 01:51	confirmed. turtles, once they are all fished, wont regenerate.

(0010809) cephalo (reporter) 2010-07-22 05:23	There are some pools in the southern part of my map where the turtles came from, and they are definately still fishable because I've designated a fishing spot and I've seen fish taken there, just no turtles. I'm not sure if this is related to 0002015, because I have plenty of fish.

(0011462) Kumquat (reporter) 2010-08-03 15:20	I've had several forts where fish went completely extinct. Not just turtles. Most recent one was at the crossing of a stream and a brook, but I think it was .07. I guess that you can empty a whole region of fish, or whatever map unit dwarf mode populations come from. The region was temperate-cold, freezing in winter, so there was at least one full season of no fishing each year.

(0011466) Quietust (reporter) 2010-08-03 18:41 edited on: 2016-10-16 10:46	This was frequent in 40d as well - after enough fishing, your region would be permanently depleted of aquatic life.

(0011498) hyndis (reporter) 2010-08-04 11:56	Seen this as well even with large wildlife. Have an old fortress in 31.08 thats some 40 years after embark. All underground wildlife has been wiped out by my military and it appears to be gone forever.

(0016379) rpetiger (reporter) 2011-03-19 18:08	I have trouble with turtles also. Most time, turtles are not availible at all, yet shells are still needed for moods. My answer was to just modify the raws so I could use bones instead of shells.

(0016947) Footkerchief (manager) 2011-04-01 12:54	Reminder sent to: cephalo, hyndis, Nimrod, rpetiger Is anyone still experiencing this bug in worlds generated in 0.31.23+? Closely related bug 0002015 was fixed in that version.

(0017440) Eskarion (reporter) 2011-04-19 01:17	Happened also in a world created with 32.25. I'm now in year 24 after embark and all fish/turtles in the brook and the pools is gone though I had plenty at the begining.

(0017845) cephalo (reporter) 2011-05-25 09:29	In a world created with 32.25, I have no fish of any kind after about 20 years.

(0017846) ponom (reporter) 2011-05-25 13:04 edited on: 2011-05-25 13:07	Playing 32.24 ran out of mussels in brook after ~ 3 years. It has become extinct. Although there are some vermin fish seen on the map it says "there's nothing to catch in the river" and in fishing zone it is still "0". New animal are coming each season/year but not fish. Playing temperate biome. Plz check bugged save with no fish although submitted to other bug http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4307 [^]

(0017847) Quietust (reporter) 2011-05-25 13:20	I assume the above 3 comments meant to refer to 0.31.* rather than 32.*

(0017858) ponom (reporter) 2011-05-26 11:53	yes. sorry it is 31.24. just checked once again. every season in zone fishing value is greater than 0. dwarf starts fishing, then reports "there is nothing to catch in the river" and fishing value resets.

(0018871) Kogut (reporter) 2011-10-21 01:55 edited on: 2011-10-22 12:22	It is not limited to turtles, all fish will go extinct (in .25)

(0020923) robertheinrich (reporter) 2012-02-29 12:27	Having the same problem with .34.04 My fisherdwarves stripped a river of all it had. Now while I would understand that you can overfish a murky pool (if nothing which could reproduce is left it naturally goes extinct) I think that should not be possible for a river since you would expect new fish coming in from up- or downstream.

(0023222) toybasher (reporter) 2012-07-13 17:21	.34.11 All fish went completely extinct in the rivers and pools within 5 years.

(0027399) lethosor (manager) 2014-07-24 05:12 edited on: 2014-07-24 05:13	Given http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_2013.html#2013-11-09 [^] , this should be looked into for 0.40.xx.

(0027400) lethosor (manager) 2014-07-24 05:58	DFHack seems to confirm this, so I'm resolving this issue. If anyone can reproduce it in 0.40.xx, please reopen this report and/or send me a message on the forums.

(0028547) lethosor (manager) 2014-08-07 17:13 edited on: 2014-08-07 17:21	Reopening.

(0028549) Loci (manager) 2014-08-07 17:26	I ramped up fishing to test this bug. After many pond turtle roasts (apparently the only species available in my embark), the supply stopped. It has been five in-game years with "nothing to catch"--if the population was refreshing slowly I would expect at least a few new critters to spawn in that time frame.

(0028551) lethosor (manager) 2014-08-07 17:50	Pond turtles only live in pools, so it could be that only river populations were fixed (which would explain my results). I'll re-title this report again, but feel free to share any additional findings.

(0036019) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2016-11-01 09:01 edited on: 2016-11-01 11:34	Pond turtles lay eggs, which might contribute why they will only breed in off site statistics if that's any relevance. DF structures used for dfhack only implies that eggs that are hatched go into certain classes, and entity ID is one of them for intelligent species (crow men eggs layed and hatched on site belong to you etc., underground egg laying races have been in constant decline since they were added because of this until recently) Egg layers have always had a hard time repopulating due to dependency on a object to breed which limited and stagnated them in world gen (made easier by spontaneous population regeneration in world-gen recently). I cannot recollect if its possible to offer pet pond turtles nestboxes to use by pitting or pasturing enough of them in a contained area as a alternative or even if they have additional orientation/marriage barriers to overcome we are not aware of. All gendered vermin breed (or apparently breed, they have the prequesite animal tags but its uncertain whether they become pregnant whilst in the game world before leaving for the site population tally and being replaced with a new generated creature in their momentary existances, or even if they do become pregnant at all with child/adult born states) hermaphrodital or non-gender typical vermin are usually accounted for by being virtually innumerable to compensate for no breeding on site. Technically if the female pond turtle could get off the map by dissapearing and being replaced whilst pregnant it could spawn additional turtles slowly. Fish are very visible with ASCII symbols and can be seen in murky ponds and rivers for periods of time if a example is needed, if they are close together they are in the capacity to breed and keep the numbers up. Drop a sizable amount of caught vermin fish into a empty pool and it should sustain the fish in theory as they repopulate with compatible mates in that area. Similar designs have been used with isolated cave spider rooms with wild vermin which appear to be self sustainable and harvested with burrowed animal trappers & web collectors. Under 'Cave spider silk farm': http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Silk_farming [^]