0005462: Too many animal men, not enough animals?

Notes
(0020753) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-02-26 11:02 edited on: 2012-02-26 11:02	We're going to need some actual numbers. You might try looking at region population counts in Legends, etc.

(0023653) thrush_titan (reporter) 2012-10-13 04:02	Hi, since the OP never updated this with numbers I will From legends viewer with a world I recently played: Top 10 species, starting with the first non-vermin species: Dingo Men: 1251530 Anchovies: 1238580 Mosquito Men: 1227470 Grasshopper Men: 1222816 Louse Men: 1221392 Tick Men: 1210967 Thrips Men: 1194660 Masked Lovebirds: 1189284 Cockatiels: 1142499 Fairies: 1118376 Beastmen populations are completely outlandish. There are at least a dozen beastmen species that individually outnumber all civilized species put together: Goblins: 220791 Dwarves: 144009 Elves: 129967 Humans: 123798 =618535 With these kinds of numbers who cares about the civilized species? The game should be focused on the beastman races instead. Many beastmen species outnumber their standard counterpart, and most outnumber the giant counterpart. There are, for example, nearly three times as many dingo men as actual dingos, nevermind giant dingos Dingo Men: 1251530 Dingoes: 415109 Giant Dingoes: 338809 But really the problem here is that in biomes where these beastmen exist, they exclude other species with their unending numbers, and they are only an irritation to the player since they can't be butchered, endlessly fill cage traps and are only a bother to fight.

(0023654) ab9rf (reporter) 2012-10-13 07:40	This is straight up an issue with the standard raws. The [POPULATION_NUMBER] and [CLUSTER_NUMBER] tags for dingo men and dingo simply call for there to be more dingo men than dingos. I haven't checked the other manimal raws, but I suspect you'll find that most of the manimals have [POPULATION_NUMBER:30:50] while most regular animals have [POPULATION_NUMBER:10:20]. If you want fewer manimals, replace the [POPULATION_NUMBER:30:50] in the raws for each of the manimals with something like [POPULATION_NUMBER:8:12] (or some other configuration that has the population numbers for the animal man variety lower than the pop numbers for the base creature).

(0023656) ab9rf (reporter) 2012-10-13 09:03 edited on: 2012-10-13 09:07	I think the problem is that when Toady added the raws for the animal men he picked numbers for POPULATION based on those already extant for vermin birds, and then used those same numbers across all animal men. In addition, the [FREQUENCY] tag is not overridden by the animal man template, so crow men (and other animal persons derived from common vermin) are [FREQUENCY:100], and combined with [POPULATION:30:50] that means these "vermin" men will tend to dominate the animal population in biomes where they are permitted, because those population numbers are larger than most other animals, and few non-vermin animals have frequencies of 100. It might be nice if the creature variation template for animal person would by default divide frequency by 5 (or even 10), but there does not appear to be a way to do that with the current raw parser. Toady would have to add that, or if it's already there tell us how to do it. In any case, I am reminded of the giant mosquito problem in 34.01.

(0023657) ab9rf (reporter) 2012-10-13 10:12 edited on: 2012-10-13 10:25	I've done some experiments in fiddling the raws, and have managed to reduce giant and manimal populations simply by modifying the animal men and giant animal variation templates. Specifically, adding [CV_REMOVE_TAG:UBIQUITOUS] [CV_REMOVE_TAG:FREQUENCY] [CV_NEW_TAG:FREQUENCY:5] to the templates for CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON and CREATURE_VARIATION:ANIMAL_PERSON_LEGLESS, and the same thing except with FREQUENCY:10 for CREATURE_VARIATION:GIANT has salutary effects in reducing the number of animal men in the generated world. Alas, not for dingoes, because dingoes are already FREQUENCY:5 (and therefore you might actually get MORE giant dingoes with this mod). Removing the UBIQUITOUS tag from the giant and animal men variations does wonders to reduce the swarms of mosquito men and thrips men. I think this may be more of the problem here than anything else. All of the top manimals listed in Thrush_Titan's information, except for dingo men, are "ubiquitous". The mod I tested reduced the generated populations of these creatures by 90% to 99%. If I may make a plea to Toady here, please add a way in creature variations to multiply/divide frequency the same way you have offered a way to multiply body weight. I think that would be beneficial.

(0023658) kreepergrimms (reporter) 2012-10-13 13:00	there is a way to change the raws to include butchering of animal men, along with all sentients as well, this is the fix i used to counter the abundant animal men due to me embarking on terrifying only, it gives the ability to butcher ogres and trolls as well

(0026206) darchitect (reporter) 2014-07-13 14:54	Still a problem for 40.02. From a small world: Civilized World Population 9682 Dwarves 4320 Humans 1451 Elves 32667 Goblins 263 Kobolds Total: 48383 24381 giant thrips 39738 thrips men Unnumbered thrips 6896 giant cockatiels 13172 cockatiel men 167653 cockatiels 10018 giant rattlesnakes 34010 rattlesnake men 2370 rattlesnakes 7829 giant hamsters 40617 hamster men 617366 hamsters 56318 gigantic squids 93216 squid men 548124 squids 29130 giant sperm whales 67970 sperm whale men 33014 sperm whales Looks like the proportions have been fixed for some of the creatures: 14364 giant dingoes 17164 dingo men 28689 dingoes Slaves to Armok, God of Blood II: Sperm Whale Man Fortress! :D

(0026208) dree12 (reporter) 2014-07-13 15:00 edited on: 2014-07-13 15:01	I don't think we should even have half as many dingo men as dingoes. Animal men should be rare. I wouldn't mind a world with not a single dingo man as long as there are hamster men to compensate for it, or vice versa. It does not make sense to me for a half or more of the world animal population to be either half-man or much bigger than they should be. Also, I think neutral areas should at least pass off as semi-realistic. A manimal once in a while is fine, but they should not be as common as some animals.

(0026209) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-13 15:05	This is a relatively quick fix for Toady, he just have to change the raws after all. I usually just take out all animal men out of the raws, and by deleting it manually I don't take more than 10 minutes.

(0026229) darchitect (reporter) 2014-07-13 16:19	I know this isn't the place for suggestions, but I'd really love it if the RNG would ONLY allow 1-3 animal men populations for each world generated. That way it's actually special when you interact with them or discover them. The Dimensions of Wind? Famed for its Tigermen. Welcome to Thundara! The Soul-Universe of Enchanting? Antmen and Pandamen have been fighting since the dawn of time here. Anyway, you get my drift. Until then, I'll just delete them all so my dwarves will actually have game to hunt.

(0027356) Daw11 (reporter) 2014-07-23 14:57	Animal men shouldn't be more than 1 every 100 normal animal. Having so much of them is annoying, they appear in every embark and ruin the immersion into the game world.

(0027788) fricy (reporter) 2014-07-28 10:37	These creatures were missed in the 40.05 fixapalozza, and still have [POPULATION_NUMBER:30:50]. creature subterran: [CREATURE:AMPHIBIAN_MAN] [CREATURE:REPTILE_MAN] [CREATURE:SERPENT_MAN] [CREATURE:ANT_MAN] [CREATURE:RODENT MAN]

(0027789) thvaz (reporter) 2014-07-28 10:45 edited on: 2014-07-28 10:46	These creatures are another kind of animal men. They have underground protocivilizations and are evil.

(0027797) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-07-28 12:15	They are indeed different. fricy, are they crowding out underground animals?

(0027798) Knight Otu (manager) 2014-07-28 12:23	They shouldn't. They're separate entity populations.

(0027799) Toady One (administrator) 2014-07-28 12:26	I went ahead and changed the raws, since there is some confusion cause by leaving it, but they are indeed a different thing. I'm not sure what the future holds for all the animal people, but we might end up moving away from these sorts of pops for the underground ones or all of them later on. Leaving it as fixed for 0.40.05 instead of .06 since the main problem fix relates to that version.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2012-02-26 10:59	HammerDave	New Issue
2012-02-26 11:02	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0020753
2012-02-26 11:02	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0020753	View Revisions
2012-02-26 11:02	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2012-04-08 04:33	kento	Issue Monitored: kento
2012-10-13 04:02	thrush_titan	Note Added: 0023653
2012-10-13 07:40	ab9rf	Note Added: 0023654
2012-10-13 09:03	ab9rf	Note Added: 0023656
2012-10-13 09:07	ab9rf	Note Edited: 0023656	View Revisions
2012-10-13 10:12	ab9rf	Note Added: 0023657
2012-10-13 10:25	ab9rf	Note Edited: 0023657	View Revisions
2012-10-13 13:00	kreepergrimms	Note Added: 0023658
2012-10-23 11:57	arclance	Issue Monitored: arclance
2012-12-25 09:55	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2014-07-13 14:54	darchitect	Note Added: 0026206
2014-07-13 15:00	dree12	Note Added: 0026208
2014-07-13 15:01	dree12	Note Edited: 0026208	View Revisions
2014-07-13 15:05	thvaz	Note Added: 0026209
2014-07-13 15:52	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Probable Quick Fix
2014-07-13 16:19	darchitect	Note Added: 0026229
2014-07-23 14:57	Daw11	Note Added: 0027356
2014-07-25 15:47	Kirkegaard	Issue Monitored: Kirkegaard
2014-07-26 14:09	Toady One	Status	new => resolved
2014-07-26 14:09	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> Next Version
2014-07-26 14:09	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2014-07-26 14:09	Toady One	Assigned To	=> Toady One
2014-07-26 14:26	Kirkegaard	Issue End Monitor: Kirkegaard
2014-07-28 07:10	Footkerchief	Status	resolved => confirmed
2014-07-28 10:37	fricy	Note Added: 0027788
2014-07-28 10:45	thvaz	Note Added: 0027789
2014-07-28 10:46	thvaz	Note Edited: 0027789	View Revisions
2014-07-28 12:15	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0027797
2014-07-28 12:23	Knight Otu	Note Added: 0027798
2014-07-28 12:26	Toady One	Note Added: 0027799
2014-07-28 12:26	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved

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