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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0010662Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Diplomacypublic2018-03-24 07:112021-07-19 12:26
ReporterFantasticDorf 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.44.07 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0010662: Goblins lack diplomatic roles
DescriptionCompared to elves & dwarves with respective [DIPLOMAT] the generated positions of goblin & human civilisations don't apply visible non-generated diplomats, despite being the most active civs on par with dwarves.

I am unsure on the specifics linked to [RESPONSIBILITY:MAKE_PEACE_AGREEMENTS] and [RESPONSIBLITY:MAKE_TOPIC_AGREEMENTS] and new artifact release behaviour but a lack of established diplomatic roles may be inhibiting 'villains' to operate.

Goblins are unsociable and ethically abhorrent to dwarves, but compared to humans do not possess any non-generated diplomats at all leaving them unable to resolve conflicts or take part in actions that require one in appropriate settings.
Steps To ReproduceOpen entity file, compare elf & dwarf diplomats to the lack of positions in human and goblin positions.

This can have effects in world generation in the resolution of wars between unreceptive participants. May also affect gameplay in which its needed once you have a baron level position and can receive them (though mayors are RAW capable otherwise)
Additional InformationAdding a permanent [DIPLOMAT] role position reservation should fix this as a modding solution rather than leaving it to generated roles which can be unreliable for re-assigning themselves leaving the sometimes important position vacant.

Similarly to the above paragraph for 0010312 reliance on generated 'General' role has repercussions for the civilisation not being able to send out armies with their army leader or tame animals if the generated position isn't refilled is also solved with a permanent position.

May pose a problem to future development goals.
Tagsdiplomat, goblin, oversight?
Attached Files

- Relationships

-  Notes
(0038013)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2018-03-24 10:59

 For goblins it's likely acceptable given their usual approach to other civilizations (so long as it doesn't break things), but humans likely should have them.
(0038018)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2018-03-24 13:29

 Goblins would still need diplomats in order to apply extortion like to demand artifacts or (for the future versions) tribute that they would send spies and operatives for anyway, which may conflict with future development goals.

From the artifact release devlog 22/11/2017 "The interactions with heroes and invading armies are more straightforward. There will either be 'P'etitions or a diplomacy popup to handle." artifact demands were ported with the update but seemingly failed to materialise at which i put a lack of diplomats at blame.

"New artifact events in play and worldgen: questers seek artifacts and ask for or steal them, invaders demand artifacts"

Anecdotally in a 100+ population mayorally governed settlement in 44.07 liable to recieve diplomats i have not recieved a single request or heard of anybody else receive one whilst being besieged by hostile goblin forces in natural due course.

Adding a diplomat from modding test environments doesn't particularly hinder their outward aggression, but lack of one may make them unable to interact in ways that are expected of them. I have not tested whether the artifact demands would take place in those conditions yet to affirm with complete confidence but i will look into the matter and attempt to create suitable conditions.
(0038020)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2018-03-24 13:51

 That sounds like good reason to give both diplomats then, yeah.
(0040077)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-02-16 04:31
edited on: 2020-02-16 07:35

 This is still the case in 47.02, even though humans recieved a expanded set of variable positions with some offmap misc & real interactions with fort & adventure mode like *high-treasurer's conducting human-dwarf trade agreements.

Dark Fortress sites still don't have a diplomacy noble by default or one that can be subbed in with [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:DIPLOMACY] or under ALL they're set to normally on entity:evil
(0040159)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-02-21 11:48

 In 47.03 likely affected by VARIABLE_POSITIONS &/or VARIABLE_SITE_POSITIONS (unsure at the minute) in due course of time, with a assigned also generated [POSITION:MONARCH] the master defacto leader of the dark-fortress will assign a sortie of custom officials to conduct important roles like advice, beast mastery, diplomacy and espionage.

prefix("chief") chamberlain & prefix("head") councillor (amongst some others) were both appointed as diplomatic esque roles within capacity of goblin CUSTOM_OFFICIAL to fill the role instead procedurally. So this might be fixed, but not in a typical fashion.
(0040160)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-02-21 11:50

 Using [POSITION:CUSTOM_OFFICIAL#<num>] according to vordaks list (enclosed on link below to bay12 forum) to overwrite is preferable to using [POSITION:DIPLOMAT] for more direct modding to take precautions to avoid crashes and conflicts.

(( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175437.msg8083684#msg8083684 [^] ))
(0041103)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2021-07-19 12:26

 Important informational update: Since 47.05, MONARCH no longer implicitly rules the site as a variable position and the responsibility is handled by a [POSITION:WORSHIP_HF] that is the master, proofed by modded editing causing the new definitions to pass over when the original master expires.

By default in vanilla, WORSHIP_HF master's role as a demon is hardcoded (mentioned here 0011775 ) to a strict amount of uneditable tokens with only additions allowed, not including conducting personal diplomatic visits unlike version 34. , under a different positional guise of a imposter-diety for a human civilization.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2018-03-24 07:11 FantasticDorf New Issue
2018-03-24 07:13 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: diplomat
2018-03-24 07:13 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: goblin
2018-03-24 07:13 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: oversight?
2018-03-24 10:59 chaosvolt Note Added: 0038013
2018-03-24 11:01 chaosvolt Issue Monitored: chaosvolt
2018-03-24 13:29 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0038018
2018-03-24 13:51 chaosvolt Note Added: 0038020
2020-02-16 04:31 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040077
2020-02-16 07:35 FantasticDorf Note Edited: 0040077 View Revisions
2020-02-21 11:48 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040159
2020-02-21 11:50 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040160
2021-07-19 12:26 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0041103

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