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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0011559Dwarf FortressDwarf Mode -- Noblespublic2020-06-18 08:482020-11-03 00:53
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityhave not tried
PlatformPCOSWindowsOS Version10.1
Product Version0.47.04 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0011559: Dead civ expedition leaders are not replaced when dead
DescriptionNormally a new expedition leader is appointed immediately when the previous one dies (unlike the mayor, where you have to wait for the next election), but that does not seem to work with truly dead civs.
I lost my expedition leader to deadly syndrome rain, with a proper burial, but failed to get a new one after over a year. As a result of that, I generated a number of vanilla worlds (eventually using advanced world gen and a PSV set when normal world gen didn't provide any for a number of attempts) until I got one with dead civs. Using a DFHack script I made the suppressed dwarven civs available for civ selection (just adding them to the list).
After embark I killed the expedition leader with the DFHack script command "exterminate him" and waited for a few days, verifying that no new expedition leader shows up either on the nobles screen or as an announcement message.
Steps To ReproduceEmbark as a truly dead civ (blank civ/civ subscreen at embark), get the expedition leader killed by whatever means you find expedient, wait for however long you think is necessary to verify that no new expedition leader is appointed.
TagsNo tags attached.
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-  Notes
Shonai_Dweller (reporter)
2020-06-18 16:05

Maybe it needs an outside entity like a monarch to come into existence? Do your dead civs have a monarch?
Oafsalot (reporter)
2020-10-25 12:29

Hi, I have a very similar bug. Upload and description here - [^]

I've been trying to edit the raws of the save to make a mayor/exp ldr appointed by my militia cmdr. But no sauce. I've looked at and changed the command make-monarch in dfhack, but it replaces them, doesn't appoint a new one unless there already is one.

Anyway, another bug to smush.
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-10-31 05:58

Normally monarchs who have lost their civilization in war in dead but still playable dwarf civs will flee to caves/wildernesses but there are other situations where dwarves lose the power to control their administration or appoint a successor, like if they are captured.

0011023 helps illustrate that whilst 'travelling' (caused by a capture) relevant actors will refuse to acknowledge a site without a present leader noble.
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-10-31 06:36

Other incongruous reports related to travelling include any kind of out of site abscence, including death by drawbridge on site 0011611 & absence by misadventure with no news regarding turning up to a targeted site in the first place. 0010629

All deaths by drawbridge simply refer to the affected persons as missing in their slab descriptions relevant to 0005787 despite there being drawbridge related death strings wrote out for dwarves since to acknowledge the events not used in 0011611 , leading to the likelyhood that any such resposible monarch for the dead civ may have simply died unobserved offsite of natural causes without retiring the extinct civilization.
PatrikLundell (reporter)
2020-11-01 01:35

Both Shonai_Dweller and FantasicDorf fail to notice the word "truly" in the report. A truly dead civ is one that DF considers to be dead (which is distinct from what a player would expect to be dead, due to buggy accounting by DF), with the hallmarks of such civs:
- No monarch (at any time).
- The two hard coded migrant waves only.
- No dwarven caravans (and no liaison).
- No ability for parties sent out from the fortress to actually move anywhere (exiled dorfs are no longer members of the fortress, and I think they may actually be able to move to their targets [either a designated spontaneously linked site, or one selected by the dorf after having been expelled with no specified destination]).

Thus, both reporters discuss civs that have their monarchs killed lost or rendered incapable of performing their duties. Those civs might be "struggling", which the DF UI doesn't distinguish from dead, but such events could very well happen to a civ with no signs of trouble at embark as a result of a conquest of the mountainhome after embark.
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-11-02 00:36

Such conditions are not tangible without being a bug in themself though, as you point out about struggling civs being different; it would automatically force you towards another dwarf civilization elsewise or end world generation's playability if thats your only playable choice for selection on a intended complete null result of extinct civilization.

Least it had never operated like the original bug report presents in previous versions, with ages of death etc only being operatable by generic 'outsider' adventurers.
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2020-11-02 00:46

On the other hand, 0011023 lays clear whether the remaining of the dwarven monarchy's descendants & nobles who have been enslaved & captured in a captial city rout may subsequently integrate with their foriegn captors, but not forfiet their titles with immediate effect with lasting reprecussions for the site they are associated with.

Count Endok as a named individual mentioned directly within prior mentioned report & below save compiled by loci explains the naturalization of this still active noble. And all of the prisoners of seizing that site in the name of the player's fort were not automatically repatriated because of the flip-floppiness of goblin slavery used to sway captured children to their cause in which he was now regarded a goblin citizen in captivity despite simultaneously being a count in the players fort. [^]
PatrikLundell (reporter)
2020-11-03 00:53

As far as I understand, the presence of dead civs is intended, and does not require the civs of other races to be dead. What's not intended is the buggy accounting leading civs that should be dead to be treated as "struggling", nor, of course, are the bugs resulting from the absence of "normal" features for these civs (such as monarchs and a functioning civ level decision phase).

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2020-06-18 08:48 PatrikLundell New Issue
2020-06-18 16:05 Shonai_Dweller Note Added: 0040586
2020-10-25 12:29 Oafsalot Note Added: 0040773
2020-10-31 05:58 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040777
2020-10-31 06:36 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040778
2020-11-01 01:35 PatrikLundell Note Added: 0040779
2020-11-02 00:36 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040782
2020-11-02 00:46 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0040783
2020-11-03 00:53 PatrikLundell Note Added: 0040784

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