|Anonymous | Login | Signup for a new account||2022-12-06 06:27 PST|
|Main | My View | View Issues | Change Log | Roadmap|
|View Issue Details|
|ID||Project||Category||View Status||Date Submitted||Last Update|
|0003259||Dwarf Fortress||Dwarf Mode -- Combat||public||2010-09-17 01:31||2020-03-20 23:46|
|Priority||normal||Severity||minor||Reproducibility||unable to reproduce|
|Target Version||Fixed in Version|
|Summary||0003259: Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack were-citizens, merchants/traders, guards, or liaison|
|Description||I created a squad and ordered to kill caravan guards. After short battle i lost half of my dwarves (approx. 10). When squad members left their equipment i started to get messages "%dwarfname% cannot %dosomething%: interrupted by %anotherdwarfname%". Nobody fought, but there was chaos. When i tried to create a squad and to command to move somewhere, dwarves started to kill each other until there were only two of them left. They lived peacefully, worked normally. But then immigrants arrived and i started to get these messages again. That stopped only when equipped immigrants massacred the native ones.|
|Tags||Fixed in 0.40.01?, long-standing bug|
|Do you have a save?|
to me that sounds like a pretty NORMAL tantrum spiral. You probably had a bunch of dwarfs get upset over the deaths of the 10 that died from the caravan guards. When they tantrum and killed others it can cause what is known as a tantrum spiral.
|I know about TS. Nope, nobody was upset and they were not fighting unequipped. And immigrants arrived after approx. one year :) I'll upload the save later today or tomorrow.|
|This is known as a "Loyalty Cascade".|
|Sounds like the caravan guards were from your parent civilization, and the differing factions the dwarfs belonged you became hostile to each other. When that happens, they start slaughtering each other indiscriminately. I did it once in adventure mode by wrestling a donkey.|
|Oh, so it's not a bug, right?|
|It is a bug, but it's not a *new* bug...|
edited on: 2010-12-09 21:02
Don't think I would call it a bug at all - it's proper actor motivation (those people just killed our fellow dwarves! WTF! They must be berserk - get them!)
It could stand to be fleshed out with some player feedback though. Maybe an announcement like "A renegade faction has broken away from The Bolts of Splitting!" would be good.
Then the "traitors" could be explicitly delineated as a new entity, and dwarves could join them or band against them depending on personalities and family/friendship ties. That way if the "revolution" is popular enough your fortress would effectively secede from the parent civ.
Asteroide provided this save :
LoSbaccacc provided this save :
edited on: 2010-12-09 18:03
I had this happen to me on my second fort. Everyone started killing each other after I ordered my squad to attack the dwarven caravan, and from then on out everyone was acting like all other dwarves (and pets) were the enemy and running away from them, and causing mass job interrupted messages. Some got stuck in loops where they would walk back and forth, attempting one task, stopping, then attempting another before stopping and going back to the first one. Dwarves stopped eating, drinking and stopped responding to nearly all orders in general. Went from 60 some-odd dwarves to 10.
The save before the chaos started: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3546 [^]
edited on: 2011-01-07 06:02
I just tried doing this with an alternate savefile, and this is what turned up in the dwarf's Thoughts and Preferences page:
"She is a member of The Ashen Lenses. She is a former member of The Hall of Deities. She is an enemy of The Hall of Deities. She is the Militia Commander of The Ashen Lenses."
Another dwarf that was not involved in the attack has the following:
"He is a citizen of The Hall of Deities. He is a member of The Ashen Lenses."
Once he bumped into the above renegade, it changed into:
"He is a citizen of The Hall of Deities. He is a former member of The Ashen Lenses. He is an enemy of The Ashen Lenses."
As I moved more soldiers into the combat area, the following pattern seemed to emerge:
* Attacking a member of the Civilization but an enemy of the Group makes the dwarf an enemy of the Civilization but not an enemy of the Group; since the entire fortress is a member of both the Civilization and the Group, this dwarf becomes hostile to everybody in the fortress (and probably also the caravan)
* Attacking a member of the Group but an enemy of the Civilization makes the dwarf an enemy of the Group but not an enemy of the Civilization; for the same reason as above, this dwarf becomes hostile to everyone in the fortress (but probably not the caravan).
A simple way to solve this would be to make the dwarf become an enemy of both the civilization and the fortress's local group, which would be most easily done by just making the dwarf immediately go Berserk (since it'd have the same outcome). A special message about the dwarf going renegade could also serve as a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatTheHellPlayer [^] moment.
edited on: 2010-12-09 21:32
So in other words, it *almost* perfectly matches what I said above about being completely logical actor motivation...
I'm strongly against the "bug" label on this one, but I think that player feedback should be enhanced a lot to show the tension and secession.
Maybe even a popup dialog when a kill order is given to members of the same entity ("Are you sure you want to rebel against The Hall of Deities? Y/N") And there should be more opportunities for dwarves to join the splinter group (if there aren't already - as I said, not enough player feedback.)
But according to your testing, it sounds like assigning every dwarf in the fort to the militia and telling them to kill the caravan when it arrives should actually cause a civil war (without any means of suing for peace at the moment, but that'll come one day.) Instead of immigrants, the parent civ will send... well, immigrants, but they'll attack on sight as if they were trying to reclaim a splintered town that had fortified itself against its "proper" ruler.
(edit: had some misreading here, removed it)
edited on: 2010-12-11 23:38
At some point the bug label could be removed, given proper treatment of the issue, but as it is, it causes your soldiers to kill your dwarves and can cause an entire fortress to be unable to function with no explanation. That's really not fun to experience as a new player. Not even "Fun" fun. Until going rebel has been expanded and allows you to still function, I'd recommend maybe not being allowed to issue kill orders on other dwarves period. Seems to me the quickest and easiest solution until the scenario has been developed more.
Reminder sent to: amlor, Gero, Quietust
Does this bug still occur in 31.21?
Styledatol posted a save at 0003423:0013936: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3427 [^]
troas posted a save at 0002913: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2868 [^]
|Just got this when killing a mad friendly donky in 31.25. So yes, it does still happen.|
Knight Otu (manager)
|Zwei posted a save at 0004889|
|I can confirm that this happened to me in 34.11. Goblin siege animals were captured, tamed, and released. The military was assigned to kill them, and then the military dwarves started massacring dwarves and pets, while civilian dwarves were cancelling jobs due to being interrupted, as if by hostiles.|
|I can reproduce this in 34.11. I told my army to attack a dwarven caravan, suddenly, everyone started killing eachother. I even had a dwarven baby punch a farmer's skull through his brain, killing him instantly.|
savegame from 34.11 showing post werecreature military loyalty failure
|In case it isn't clear, this is definitely a bug and needs to be fixed - Toady went to significant lengths to fix the "civil war bug" in earlier versions of the game (which is exactly what this bug is), and military attack orders are simply not properly checking whether they will trigger a civil war when followed.|
A kill order doesn't seem to be necessary - I had dwarves attacking each other immediately after seeing a werebeast citizen transform back. The military was training downstairs before it started and made no move to attack the werebeast.
Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9277 [^]
edited on: 2014-08-04 09:13
Having a creature go berserk by any means other than a failed mood seems to trigger a loyalty cascade upon attacking. Not something I'd post a bug report about, since it only comes up in modding, but I've seen it happen many a time with rage mists.
What I'm talking about is something that I noted in .34.11, haven't tested it since, but it is likely still around.
|Werebeasts are in the vanilla game, and dwarves can go berserk if they're miserable/very tired, so it affects more than mods.|
edited on: 2014-11-10 10:54
Still happens in 0.40.15. Look at this image: http://www.fastquake.com/images/df_werearmadillo_lc.png [^]
Here you can see a dwarf transforming into a werebeast, and then being struck down. After the werebeast is struck down, the squad that killed it starts murdering citizens for no apparent reason. 5 dwarves die, and then everything goes back to normal. Bizarre. I am certain that nobody got infected or killed by the werebeast; I checked Legends.
This also happened when I ordered them to kill a berserk dwarf. They kill the berserk dwarf and then turn on the citizenry. That time, 18 died and then the fighting ended.
I'm confused about this because I thought loyalty cascades ended only when one side wiped out the other; in this case they kill some random people and then stop.
edited on: 2016-03-12 17:07
Loyalty cascade-like event just happened in my fort. Some visiting humans suddenly became hostile. After that, most tavern patrons get slaughtered and elven caravan gets scared away. Then everything goes quiet. Not exactly sure what caused it, but it must have something to do with goblin army that recently arrived. I don't know if it constitutes as a loyalty cascade or some other bug, so I decided to post it here.
Here is a save file from moments before it all happens:
I'm using PyLNP with DF version 0.42.06.
Edit: I reloaded from backup save a season earlier. Masacare definitely starts soon after goblins arrive, but before my military starts fighting them.
|Fights between completely different entities are a different issue to regular loyalty cascades. Also they're probably a somewhat opaque 'feature' rather than a bug. Toady mentioned in his own devlog visitors attacking each other due to off-screen disputes. This seems similar (siege starts, thus putting you at war with another civ, relationship to visitors is now different).|
grand sage (reporter)
I documented this problem in my fort to the forums, check http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163692.msg7418641#msg7418641 [^]
so, its not resolved yet...
edited on: 2020-01-30 19:17
This is still a problem in 0.47.01
Tavern brawls and tantrum fights can cause loyalty cascades that kill off a large amount of the fort's population (mine went twice from 100+ dwarves to just a couple dozen). Same with killing berserk dwarves (after killing the berserk dwarf, the soldiers started killing eachother with their weapons, ended with 3 out of 10 soldiers dead).
With dwarves migrating much of everywhere for religious reasons in 0.47.01, often your migrants are a composition of ex-human/elf/other dwarf civ residents moving about in world generation.
Similarly, visitors previously were noted to burst into violence when sieges came by use of pit zones; 0011133 & 0010870 on ver: 0.44.12 implied to be related to being spies.
On Discord, user Zapdos (no alias here or on the forum i think) posted this message and a screenshot of a interrogation afterwards of a loyalty cascade in which was prompted by the attempted theft of a artifact on the fortress map.
Message (( https://puu.sh/F5BVl/f1719223f7.jpg [^] ))
Closeup of interrogation report (( https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/245937631848824833/672633454348730388/image0.jpg [^] ))
Whether this is transparent enough and reported correctly or not will matter in relation to villans being a causation versus factors in previous versions.
Was about to report this, haven't had a loyalty cascade this big from killing a were citizen before in other .4x editions, but here is a .47.02 save with my spearmaster going on a rampage after their squad easily dispatched of a were-elephant infestation.
Also had a tiny little loyalty cascade after a were-elephant visitor (which also was a convicted criminal/villain) was killed in that same save, but that only ended up killing two of my dwarves. Not nearly as gamebreaking.
I just had a loyalty cascade caused by killing a berserk dwarf after failing a mood. Everyone was in decent spirits/not particularly stressed before the incident.
Here is a save of that; http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14794 [^]
Game version 47.02
I have also had a loyalty cascade begin in 47.01 after killing a visitor that was trying to escape with an artifact. That save was lost, but I would presume easily reproducible by trapping a visitor as they're trying to escape with an artifact and killing them.
This might be fixed in version 47.04
I noticed a save that had a loyalty cascade in 47.03 did not have one in 47.04. This was an attacking army with Dwarves in it. I have not tested this on anything else.
|This is worse than ever in 47.04, just FALLING DOWN ON SOMEONE triggers the dwarves and they will absolutely kill eachother. Depending on the murderers personality they might just have a total breakdown as well because of the negative thoughts caused by it. On top of all that, if the dwarves have any space to run they will run back and forth for days which can cause some serious lag|
Dwarves are easily triggered to fight in a instance of joining a existing fight in 47.04 by their need triggers within 0011436 . By that link, the more actors that join a fight for their own reasons of quick need satisfaction through 'joining a existing conflict' are making it wider by a butterfly effect.
Pitting & bumping into someone interred should definitely be investigated though as a quarter combat-issue , here's some relevant reports for dwarves & visitors going spontaneously crazy 0010870 which going by Toady's comment is still particular influencial 0009650
(( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9650#c35258 [^] ))
|Can confirm @eviljapyay I reported in one of the other loyalty cascade tickets that a bunch of dwarves that started wrestling a goblin thief, started attacking eachother, presumably because of a stray dwarf-to-dwarf tumble/charge in the same tile.|
edited on: 2020-03-20 23:48
Here is another save of a loyalty cascade about to start; read the file description for further details. I've run the save from this point three times and twice the dwarf in question threw a tantrum and hit someone. After that all hell breaks loose.
Again version 47.04
This bug has taken over another successful fortress of mine, but my last save was after that cascade began, so I assumed it would be of little use.
|2010-09-17 01:31||amlor||New Issue|
|2010-09-17 01:57||kuketski||Note Added: 0012742|
|2010-09-17 01:57||kregoth1||Note Added: 0012743|
|2010-09-17 02:23||amlor||Note Added: 0012745|
|2010-09-17 07:02||Eugenitor||Note Added: 0012751|
|2010-09-17 08:40||Ducky||Note Added: 0012754|
|2010-09-17 11:51||amlor||Note Added: 0012763|
|2010-09-17 12:08||Eugenitor||Note Added: 0012764|
|2010-11-01 03:41||Logical2u||Relationship added||has duplicate 0003493|
|2010-11-01 03:42||Logical2u||Summary||Dwarwes kill each other without any reason => 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards results in in-fighting.|
|2010-11-02 08:03||ethanb||Note Added: 0013585|
|2010-11-02 08:05||ethanb||Note Edited: 0013585||View Revisions|
|2010-11-02 08:05||ethanb||Note Edited: 0013585||View Revisions|
|2010-11-06 08:45||Logical2u||Relationship added||has duplicate 0003144|
|2010-11-06 08:47||Logical2u||Relationship added||has duplicate 0002738|
|2010-11-06 08:47||Logical2u||Issue Monitored: Dwarfu|
|2010-11-06 08:49||Logical2u||Note Added: 0013643|
|2010-11-15 13:51||Footkerchief||Relationship added||has duplicate 0003494|
|2010-11-15 13:55||Footkerchief||Relationship replaced||related to 0003494|
|2010-11-20 06:33||Logical2u||Relationship added||related to 0003685|
|2010-11-20 16:42||Khym Chanur||Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur|
|2010-12-09 18:02||Gero||Note Added: 0014484|
|2010-12-09 18:03||Gero||Note Edited: 0014484||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 18:06||Gero||Issue Monitored: Gero|
|2010-12-09 21:02||ethanb||Note Edited: 0013585||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 21:07||Quietust||Note Added: 0014485|
|2010-12-09 21:13||Quietust||Note Edited: 0014485||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 21:15||Quietust||Note Edited: 0014485||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 21:20||ethanb||Note Added: 0014487|
|2010-12-09 21:22||ethanb||Note Edited: 0014487||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 21:27||ethanb||Note Edited: 0014487||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 21:31||ethanb||Note Edited: 0014487||View Revisions|
|2010-12-09 21:32||ethanb||Note Edited: 0014487||View Revisions|
|2010-12-11 23:37||Gero||Note Added: 0014548|
|2010-12-11 23:38||Gero||Note Edited: 0014548||View Revisions|
|2011-01-07 06:02||Quietust||Note Edited: 0014485||View Revisions|
|2011-01-08 23:07||Dwarfu||Relationship added||has duplicate 0002913|
|2011-03-05 07:30||Dwarfu||Relationship added||has duplicate 0003423|
|2011-03-07 16:04||Footkerchief||Issue Monitored: Quietust|
|2011-03-07 16:04||Footkerchief||Note Added: 0015932|
|2011-03-07 16:04||Footkerchief||Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE|
|2011-03-07 16:06||Footkerchief||Note Added: 0015933|
|2011-03-09 18:14||Quietust||Issue End Monitor: Quietust|
|2011-03-20 08:27||Footkerchief||Sticky Issue||No => Yes|
|2011-03-20 08:27||Footkerchief||Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE|
|2011-04-24 12:13||bobbens||Issue Monitored: bobbens|
|2011-04-24 12:14||bobbens||Note Added: 0017501|
|2011-05-03 04:40||Logical2u||Relationship added||has duplicate 0004606|
|2011-06-28 11:36||Dwarfu||Relationship added||has duplicate 0004718|
|2011-09-11 01:39||Knight Otu||Relationship added||has duplicate 0004889|
|2011-09-11 01:40||Knight Otu||Note Added: 0018706|
|2011-09-12 03:56||zwei||Issue Monitored: zwei|
|2011-09-25 09:15||Cryten||Issue Monitored: Cryten|
|2011-12-04 10:52||Logical2u||Relationship added||has duplicate 0004974|
|2011-12-04 10:53||Logical2u||Summary||'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards results in in-fighting. => 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards or liaison results in in-fighting.|
|2011-12-08 11:03||Dwarfu||Relationship added||has duplicate 0004977|
|2012-02-26 07:52||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0000871|
|2012-02-26 07:53||Footkerchief||Summary||'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards or liaison results in in-fighting. => Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack merchants/traders, guards, or liaison|
|2012-02-26 07:54||Footkerchief||Relationship deleted||related to 0003494|
|2012-02-26 14:41||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0005337|
|2012-03-08 15:32||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0005581|
|2012-05-22 17:00||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0005412|
|2012-05-28 08:58||Logical2u||Relationship added||parent of 0005962|
|2012-05-28 11:28||Footkerchief||Relationship deleted||parent of 0005962|
|2012-05-28 11:42||Footkerchief||Summary||Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack merchants/traders, guards, or liaison => Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack were-citizens, merchants/traders, guards, or liaison|
|2012-06-24 09:12||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0006051|
|2012-07-06 06:43||Samthere||Note Added: 0023173|
|2012-07-13 17:35||toybasher||Note Added: 0023224|
|2012-07-24 13:03||nshapter||Note Added: 0023348|
|2013-12-29 10:51||Footkerchief||Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.34.12?|
|2014-05-12 12:45||Quietust||Note Added: 0024756|
|2014-07-07 22:23||Footkerchief||Tag Renamed||Fixed in 0.34.12? => Fixed in 0.40.01?|
|2014-07-11 20:26||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0007107|
|2014-07-15 15:14||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0007349|
|2014-08-03 10:47||Footkerchief||Relationship added||has duplicate 0007811|
|2014-08-04 04:06||Steb||Issue Monitored: Steb|
|2014-08-04 07:16||gaite||Note Added: 0028269|
|2014-08-04 09:08||4maskwolf||Issue Monitored: 4maskwolf|
|2014-08-04 09:11||4maskwolf||Note Added: 0028275|
|2014-08-04 09:13||4maskwolf||Note Edited: 0028275||View Revisions|
|2014-08-04 09:43||gaite||Note Added: 0028280|
|2014-09-02 04:51||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0008220|
|2014-09-28 06:52||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0008250|
|2014-11-10 10:53||Frogging101||Note Added: 0030948|
|2014-11-10 10:54||Frogging101||Note Edited: 0030948||View Revisions|
|2015-01-28 15:30||Footkerchief||Relationship added||related to 0008775|
|2016-03-12 09:23||Nikinyo||Issue Monitored: Nikinyo|
|2016-03-12 09:23||Nikinyo||Issue End Monitor: Nikinyo|
|2016-03-12 09:53||Nikinyo||Note Added: 0034833|
|2016-03-12 09:53||Nikinyo||Note Edited: 0034833||View Revisions|
|2016-03-12 10:06||sv-esk||Issue Monitored: sv-esk|
|2016-03-12 17:07||Nikinyo||Note Edited: 0034833||View Revisions|
|2016-03-12 17:36||Shonai_Dweller||Note Added: 0034834|
|2016-03-26 11:47||chaosvolt||Tag Attached: long-standing bug|
|2017-02-25 12:16||Loci||Relationship added||has duplicate 0010149|
|2017-04-10 11:30||grand sage||Note Added: 0036403|
|2018-05-22 16:35||lethosor||Relationship added||related to 0010760|
|2018-10-21 13:53||Loci||Relationship added||related to 0010935|
|2020-01-30 19:12||Orkel||Note Added: 0039730|
|2020-01-30 19:17||Orkel||Note Edited: 0039730||View Revisions|
|2020-01-31 03:41||FantasticDorf||Note Added: 0039732|
|2020-01-31 03:54||FantasticDorf||Note Added: 0039733|
|2020-02-09 16:22||lordlemonpie||Note Added: 0039992|
|2020-02-13 11:02||EricBlank||Note Added: 0040039|
|2020-02-16 09:27||Loci||Relationship added||related to 0011363|
|2020-02-16 12:22||clanl||Issue Monitored: clanl|
|2020-02-26 19:00||Loci||Relationship added||related to 0011419|
|2020-03-01 19:12||Kijiro||Note Added: 0040287|
|2020-03-07 06:47||eviljapyay||Note Added: 0040324|
|2020-03-07 08:00||FantasticDorf||Note Added: 0040325|
|2020-03-07 10:14||Orkel||Note Added: 0040326|
|2020-03-20 23:46||EricBlank||Note Added: 0040391|
|2020-03-20 23:48||EricBlank||Note Edited: 0040391||View Revisions|
|Copyright © 2000 - 2010 MantisBT Group|