0004025: Kobolds still starving to death early in world gen

(0015295)
janglur (reporter)
2011-02-19 23:58

I can confirm. Year varies but it always under 5.

(0015455)
Infiltrator (reporter)
2011-02-24 10:34

Whole bunch of dead kobolds at about year 4, yeah.

I'm listening to the DFT now, and Toady mentioned earlier that goblins don't actually eat food. I'm guessing that it's just an oversight where golbins and kobolds and all them don't produce food, but kobolds still eat it, therefore starving to death in short order.

Just checked legends; it says the cause of death is starving, so I'd say that's what's happening. Eating but not making food.

(0015626)
Heinzy (reporter)
2011-03-01 06:11

I can confirm this, but also add that I've seen a number of worlds that most of the pop starved to death. Most notably was the elves that tended to live for a long time but then suddenly died around the year that the world gen stopped.

(0016174)
Captain Mayday (reporter)
2011-03-12 16:55

Getting something similar with megabeasts. They all seem to starve if they take over a civ. World entered the age of heroes real fast.

(0016240)
Malibu Stacey (reporter)
2011-03-14 10:39
edited on: 2011-03-14 10:40

Goblins had [NO_EAT] added as of 0.31.19 to their entity in creature_standard.txt hence they're not being affected (there are some beasts also with the tag like magma men, iron men etc).

As far as food generation goes, in entity_default.txt the Skulking (Kobold) & Forest (Elf) civilizations only have [PERMITTED_JOB:HERBALIST]. Humans & Dwarves also have [PERMITTED_JOB:PLANTER]. Humans, Dwarves & Goblins also have[PERMITTED_JOB:BUTCHER]

I think Elves may be surviving for longer as the forests they set up in have more plant life to allow plant gathering to generate enough food to sustain their populations where as Kobolds live in caves where it's not viable to live off foraging alone.

Until creatures/civilizations get some way to acquire food through non-production means (theft, trade etc) I would try adding [PERMITTED_JOB:BUTCHER] and/or [PERMITTED_JOB:PLANTER] to the Skulking civilization in entity_default.txt & see if they survive longer (or go for the easy way out & add [NO_EAT] to them in creature_standard.txt) & vice-versa for the Forest civilization.

(0016359)
Doradan (reporter)
2011-03-18 15:29

(.31.21) All kobolds are gone from the map in a matter of years, while goblins and humans (usually in the same civ) are practically everywhere except islands. Tried at least half a dozen worldgens, wondering if they just got unlucky with a bronze colossus or something, but they just keep dying out.

(0017222)
Kumquat (reporter)
2011-04-09 05:33

Most dwarfs seem to be dead by year 10 in world gen due to starvation.

I guess this may be because mountain biomes do not allow planting...

(0017537)
InsanityPrelude (reporter)
2011-04-26 17:48
edited on: 2011-04-26 17:49

The other civs make it through world gen just fine (although I only gen to about 250 years, so I may just not be running it long enough,) but I haven't had kobolds in a while. I'd been assuming one of the Civ Forge races wiped them out...

(0017961)
Dwarfu (manager)
2011-06-09 18:13

Possibly fixed in next version (may or may not be 31.26) - per Dev Notes on 06/09/2011:
"I also put in some extra precautions and tweaks so that dwarves form markets properly and are more survivable in world gen. Kobolds as well."

(0019742)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2012-02-15 21:39

I don't think this was fixed, per se. It looks more that the "protection" kobolds and co. receive is that the starvation counter begins at year 20 instead of year 0. Perhaps this is meant to give kobolds long enough time to establish food stores, but I'm still finding that entire kobold sites die anywhere from years 24-27

(0019745)
Kumquat (reporter)
2012-02-15 23:26

Looking at legends, all historical kobolds appear to die from starvation about 3 years after they become historical.

(0019747)
DarthCloakedDwarf (reporter)
2012-02-15 23:46

After 250 years of history, my adventurer has repeatedly been accosted by kobolds. It seems this bug is no longer present in the new version.

(0019784)
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-02-16 07:01

Reminder sent to: Kumquat, SirPenguin

Since it appears that this no longer happens in every world, it might help if you provided seeds for worlds where kobolds died out early.

(0020887)
SirPenguin (reporter)
2012-02-28 19:35

So, definitely fixed now because he removed starvation

(0020889)
Footkerchief (manager)
2012-02-28 19:59

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=103007.msg3044588#msg3044588 [^]

Historical figures does not include entity populations, so this may still be an issue.

(0021241)
Dwarfu (manager)
2012-03-07 17:57

I think the particular changes in 34.03 pretty much resolved the intent of this bug report without reading more into it.

If anyone is finding their populations depleting (not historical figures in legends) because of what seems like unnecessary starvation from famine, please open a new issue, or if you feel you have something to add to this report, please PM a manager on the forums.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2011-02-18 22:36	SirPenguin	New Issue
2011-02-19 10:56	Hieronymous Alloy	Issue Monitored: Hieronymous Alloy
2011-02-19 12:46	nb4est	Issue Monitored: nb4est
2011-02-19 23:58	janglur	Note Added: 0015295
2011-02-21 09:06	Dwarfu	Relationship added	related to 0004046
2011-02-23 12:47	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2011-02-24 10:34	Infiltrator	Note Added: 0015455
2011-02-28 07:31	Infiltrator	Issue Monitored: Infiltrator
2011-03-01 06:11	Heinzy	Note Added: 0015626
2011-03-10 08:12	AO	Tag Attached: 0.31.21
2011-03-10 08:12	AO	Tag Attached: civilization
2011-03-10 08:12	AO	Tag Attached: food
2011-03-10 08:12	AO	Tag Attached: legends
2011-03-12 16:55	Captain Mayday	Note Added: 0016174
2011-03-14 10:39	Malibu Stacey	Note Added: 0016240
2011-03-14 10:40	Malibu Stacey	Note Edited: 0016240	View Revisions
2011-03-16 18:07	Malibu Stacey	Issue Monitored: Malibu Stacey
2011-03-18 15:29	Doradan	Note Added: 0016359
2011-04-09 05:33	Kumquat	Note Added: 0017222
2011-04-26 17:48	InsanityPrelude	Note Added: 0017537
2011-04-26 17:49	InsanityPrelude	Note Edited: 0017537	View Revisions
2011-05-07 09:06	Naros	Issue Monitored: Naros
2011-06-09 18:12	Dwarfu	Tag Attached: Fixed in 31.26?
2011-06-09 18:13	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0017961
2011-06-09 18:14	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: Fixed in 31.26?
2011-06-09 18:14	Dwarfu	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.31.26?
2012-02-14 05:12	Footkerchief	Tag Renamed	Fixed in 0.31.26? => Fixed in 0.34.01?
2012-02-15 21:39	SirPenguin	Note Added: 0019742
2012-02-15 23:26	Kumquat	Note Added: 0019745
2012-02-15 23:46	DarthCloakedDwarf	Note Added: 0019747
2012-02-16 07:01	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Kumquat
2012-02-16 07:01	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0019784
2012-02-16 07:01	Footkerchief	Summary	Every kobold starves to death at exactly year 4 in world gen => Kobolds still starving to death early in world gen
2012-02-26 11:46	Buglist	Issue Monitored: Buglist
2012-02-28 19:35	SirPenguin	Note Added: 0020887
2012-02-28 19:59	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0020889
2012-03-07 17:54	Dwarfu	Tag Detached: Fixed in 0.34.01?
2012-03-07 17:57	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0021241
2012-03-07 17:57	Dwarfu	Status	new => resolved
2012-03-07 17:57	Dwarfu	Fixed in Version	=> 0.34.03
2012-03-07 17:57	Dwarfu	Resolution	open => fixed
2012-03-07 17:57	Dwarfu	Assigned To	=> Dwarfu
2012-03-07 17:58	Dwarfu	Status	resolved => assigned
2012-03-07 17:58	Dwarfu	Assigned To	Dwarfu => Toady One
2012-03-07 17:58	Dwarfu	Status	assigned => resolved
2012-03-10 12:42	Buglist	Issue End Monitor: Buglist
2012-03-12 11:00	Kumquat	Issue End Monitor: Kumquat
2012-03-20 06:15	Infiltrator	Issue End Monitor: Infiltrator
2012-03-29 05:39	Naros	Issue End Monitor: Naros
2012-07-05 06:51	Malibu Stacey	Issue End Monitor: Malibu Stacey
2012-11-27 18:15	nb4est	Issue End Monitor: nb4est
2014-07-10 23:08	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007025

Notes
(0015295) janglur (reporter) 2011-02-19 23:58	I can confirm. Year varies but it always under 5.

(0015455) Infiltrator (reporter) 2011-02-24 10:34	Whole bunch of dead kobolds at about year 4, yeah. I'm listening to the DFT now, and Toady mentioned earlier that goblins don't actually eat food. I'm guessing that it's just an oversight where golbins and kobolds and all them don't produce food, but kobolds still eat it, therefore starving to death in short order. Just checked legends; it says the cause of death is starving, so I'd say that's what's happening. Eating but not making food.

(0015626) Heinzy (reporter) 2011-03-01 06:11	I can confirm this, but also add that I've seen a number of worlds that most of the pop starved to death. Most notably was the elves that tended to live for a long time but then suddenly died around the year that the world gen stopped.

(0016174) Captain Mayday (reporter) 2011-03-12 16:55	Getting something similar with megabeasts. They all seem to starve if they take over a civ. World entered the age of heroes real fast.

(0016240) Malibu Stacey (reporter) 2011-03-14 10:39 edited on: 2011-03-14 10:40	Goblins had [NO_EAT] added as of 0.31.19 to their entity in creature_standard.txt hence they're not being affected (there are some beasts also with the tag like magma men, iron men etc). As far as food generation goes, in entity_default.txt the Skulking (Kobold) & Forest (Elf) civilizations only have [PERMITTED_JOB:HERBALIST]. Humans & Dwarves also have [PERMITTED_JOB:PLANTER]. Humans, Dwarves & Goblins also have[PERMITTED_JOB:BUTCHER] I think Elves may be surviving for longer as the forests they set up in have more plant life to allow plant gathering to generate enough food to sustain their populations where as Kobolds live in caves where it's not viable to live off foraging alone. Until creatures/civilizations get some way to acquire food through non-production means (theft, trade etc) I would try adding [PERMITTED_JOB:BUTCHER] and/or [PERMITTED_JOB:PLANTER] to the Skulking civilization in entity_default.txt & see if they survive longer (or go for the easy way out & add [NO_EAT] to them in creature_standard.txt) & vice-versa for the Forest civilization.

(0016359) Doradan (reporter) 2011-03-18 15:29	(.31.21) All kobolds are gone from the map in a matter of years, while goblins and humans (usually in the same civ) are practically everywhere except islands. Tried at least half a dozen worldgens, wondering if they just got unlucky with a bronze colossus or something, but they just keep dying out.

(0017222) Kumquat (reporter) 2011-04-09 05:33	Most dwarfs seem to be dead by year 10 in world gen due to starvation. I guess this may be because mountain biomes do not allow planting...

(0017537) InsanityPrelude (reporter) 2011-04-26 17:48 edited on: 2011-04-26 17:49	The other civs make it through world gen just fine (although I only gen to about 250 years, so I may just not be running it long enough,) but I haven't had kobolds in a while. I'd been assuming one of the Civ Forge races wiped them out...

(0017961) Dwarfu (manager) 2011-06-09 18:13	Possibly fixed in next version (may or may not be 31.26) - per Dev Notes on 06/09/2011: "I also put in some extra precautions and tweaks so that dwarves form markets properly and are more survivable in world gen. Kobolds as well."

(0019742) SirPenguin (reporter) 2012-02-15 21:39	I don't think this was fixed, per se. It looks more that the "protection" kobolds and co. receive is that the starvation counter begins at year 20 instead of year 0. Perhaps this is meant to give kobolds long enough time to establish food stores, but I'm still finding that entire kobold sites die anywhere from years 24-27

(0019745) Kumquat (reporter) 2012-02-15 23:26	Looking at legends, all historical kobolds appear to die from starvation about 3 years after they become historical.

(0019747) DarthCloakedDwarf (reporter) 2012-02-15 23:46	After 250 years of history, my adventurer has repeatedly been accosted by kobolds. It seems this bug is no longer present in the new version.

(0019784) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-02-16 07:01	Reminder sent to: Kumquat, SirPenguin Since it appears that this no longer happens in every world, it might help if you provided seeds for worlds where kobolds died out early.

(0020887) SirPenguin (reporter) 2012-02-28 19:35	So, definitely fixed now because he removed starvation

(0020889) Footkerchief (manager) 2012-02-28 19:59	http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=103007.msg3044588#msg3044588 [^] Historical figures does not include entity populations, so this may still be an issue.

(0021241) Dwarfu (manager) 2012-03-07 17:57	I think the particular changes in 34.03 pretty much resolved the intent of this bug report without reading more into it. If anyone is finding their populations depleting (not historical figures in legends) because of what seems like unnecessary starvation from famine, please open a new issue, or if you feel you have something to add to this report, please PM a manager on the forums.