0007435: Dwarves overwhelmed by horror at the sight of the refuse stockpile

(0026820)
Talvieno (reporter)
2014-07-17 20:13

This greatly amuses me, but I agree, it should only be if the corpse is still alive (i.e., not a corpse). This report explains what's been going on in my refuse stockpile, though - nice job figuring it out.

(0026835)
Amena Ralikema (reporter)
2014-07-17 22:49

I think that's intended behavior - squeamish dwarves are horrified by corpses and body parts of sentient creatures. Just make the braver dwarves dump the bodies somewhere the rest won't see them.

(0026869)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-07-18 08:52

Yeah, this seems intentional -- it's reasonable to expect players to put their corpse piles out of sight. Please reopen this or PM me on the forums if it has game-breaking consequences.

(0027007)
SteveTheRed (reporter)
2014-07-20 06:23

The refuse stockpile is out of sight - dwarves are being horrified by it when they go to the refuse stockpile to dump other things. So either we need to go through all dwarves and turn off refuse hauling for those of nervous dispositions (that sounds like an enjoyable addition to gameplay :-/ ) or refuse stockpiles could come with special calming notices.

Not sure if that's game breaking or just mind numbing though :-)

(0027012)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-07-20 08:13
edited on: 2014-07-20 08:13

Seems like a fortress design challenge more than anything else, but feel free to post in the Suggestions or Dwarf Mode Discussion forums.

(0028467)
Kanddak (reporter)
2014-08-06 10:15

As reported by several users elsewhere, merchants in particular seem to be very easily horrified by corpses, particularly of werecreatures.
Also, it can sometimes take quite a while to get corpses picked up and hauled away from where they died, because a dwarf will accept the job, go to fetch the corpse, get horrified and cancel the job, accept the job, go back to the corpse, get horrified again, and so on.

(0028475)
cephalo (reporter)
2014-08-06 11:35

I haven't checked, but do repeated sightings change the traits of a dwarf to be more hardened to such things? I feel like it's my newer dwarfs that have this problem.

(0028483)
Kanddak (reporter)
2014-08-06 13:19

Daonitre reports in 0007161:0028460 that his dwarves became "used to trauma" after seeing a corpse regularly. I'm planning to try putting some corpses in the dining room to harden up my dwarves.

(0029926)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-09-04 05:16

Is this still an issue with the latest morale changes?

(0029957)
SteveTheRed (reporter)
2014-09-05 06:16

I had it happen again most recently in 0.40.10 (fresh 0.40.10 world).

(0029959)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-09-05 07:45

What about 0.40.11?

(0029981)
SteveTheRed (reporter)
2014-09-05 23:32

I didn't see anything in the 0.40.11 notes about that, and hadn't started on 0.40.11 as DT isn't updated yet. I guess I can give it a go though...

(0030141)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-09-12 11:45

0.40.12 included more morale changes -- testing needed.

(0030153)
SteveTheRed (reporter)
2014-09-12 21:09

Bleh. And my 0.40.11 fort just replicated the problem too!

Iden Thobteshkad, Farmer cancels Butcher an Animal: Horrified. x3

The dead wolverine is in the refuse stockpile (which is nicely out of the way), but there are DEAD GOBLINS THERE! Arghhh!

"She is somewhat fearful in the face of imminent danger."

On to 0.40.12, I guess.

(0030154)
SteveTheRed (reporter)
2014-09-12 21:16

Saving that game from 0.40.11 and loading it in 0.40.12 resulted in my butcher heading back to the dining room, reacquiring the task, going back to the refuse stockpile to get the wolverine corpse, and being horrified again by the scary dead goblins.

So it looks like it's still there in 0.40.12, at least in old saves. I'll start a new fort in 0.40.12 now...

(0031717)
Detros (manager)
2015-01-05 16:44
edited on: 2015-01-05 16:47

Still in 40.23. Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=10386 [^]

The corpse of cyclops is scaring my dwarves whenever they meet it on dump site or in refuse stockpile. They are "horrified after seeing the cyclops "<NAME>" die". I have also already got several "too horrified" job cancellations but can't show them directly in this save because of 0001430.

See also the 4th miner, Cog Nicatkesmal: he joined my fort recently but that cyclops is now nearly a year dead.

(0031721)
ptb_ptb (reporter)
2015-01-05 19:03

I would say that the message "Horrified after seeing ___ die" is incorrect, in that they have not seen ___ die, they have just seen his/its corpse. I would think the shock of seeing someone bleed out in front of you is a bit different to passing a sun bleached skeleton for the twentieth time.

(0032008)
Lurdiak (reporter)
2015-01-19 16:19
edited on: 2015-01-19 16:21

I've also experienced this in 40.24, there's no way it's intended behavior. It's as traumatic to the dwarves to see a goblin or monster die than it is to see a fellow dwarf. The fact that it still triggers if they see an old rotting corpse is further proof that it's a bug.

(0032206)
bigcalm (reporter)
2015-02-10 14:15

I'm currently experiencing in 40.24 ; The practical upshot of sieges is that no matter how well the fight goes, dwarves end up incredibly stressed by all the bodies lying around. Because refuse dumping is one of the lowest priority jobs, it means that the dwarves spend all their time hauling off the goblinite to the various stockpiles, all the while getting continually horrified by the same corpses hundreds of times.

This could be fixed in a different way however, make positive influences more positive. If I sequester a "stressed" dwarf with 200k stress with nothing to disturb them (no job ; their own legendary furniture, dining room, statue room, range of lavish meals and range of booze, other stressed companions) - I can expect maybe a ~40k drop in stress over an entire year. So right now for the most jittery dwarves, a single siege is enough to push them such that they will take 5 years to become unstressed.

(0032492)
Qrox (reporter)
2015-04-02 03:23

I can confirm this happening in 40.24 too. Also, in the dwarfs' descriptions there are a lot of "horrified" spams. They should be better merged into something like "horrified after seeing <number> goblin corpses". Also, I think stress level should not be linear to the number of corpses they see. There's really no big difference between seeing 100 or 150 corpses than it is between seeing 1 or 51 corpses. (Logarithm perhaps? Beat me if it is already non-linear)

(0032634)
scify (reporter)
2015-05-03 15:21

Still seeing this even after the corpse and parts have been destroyed by a lava cleanse, whenever some of my dwarves wander by the square in the refuse pile where it used to be.

(0032745)
dragoon508 (reporter)
2015-05-28 00:46

Having the same issue here as well, My dwarves have been freaking out at the sight of a single tooth of a goblin I killed. That must be one scary tooth.

(0033047)
hyndis (reporter)
2015-09-12 16:25

Still happening in 40.24, and its bad. It makes a fortress nearly unplayable.

Its not even corpses that cause this problem. Bones cause this problem. Even teeth.

A macedwarf smashes out the teeth of a goblin. Even after disposing of the goblin corpse, the teeth still somehow terrify my dwarves into throwing endless tantrums.

The duration of the negative thought from seeing a corpse is way, way, way, way too long. Maybe it should be a season or two. The duration of these negative thoughts is so long that I don't recall ever seeing these negative thoughts go away.

I'm unable to un-stress my dwarves. Even after atom smashing every last bit of refuse, eating masterwork roasts and masterwork booze in a royal dining hall and partying around an artifact well they're still endlessly throwing tantrums.

DFTherapist even records their stress levels going up. Their stress isn't going down, its going up. Even in this paradise stress is going up.

(0033048)
Detros (manager)
2015-09-14 00:47
edited on: 2015-09-14 00:48

This even-tooth-counts-as-corpse-if-it's-owner-is-dead behaviour is well known in DF. See devlog at http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ [^] on 2014-02-17, for example.

(0033632)
Talvieno (reporter)
2015-12-08 09:24

Can confirm that this still happens. http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=11421 [^] as a new save where the queen has seen all animal deaths since the conception of the fortress.

(0033634)
Orkel (reporter)
2015-12-08 09:29

Yep also happening to me.

(0038313)
Loci (manager)
2018-05-09 12:49

v0.44.10: From the devlog: "Separated thoughts for seeing somebody die and finding the body".

Viewing remains (including lost teeth) now causes a "seeing a __'s dead body" thought instead.

Some amount of horror upon viewing a collection of sentient remains is very likely intended.

(0038314)
ArmokGoB (reporter)
2018-05-09 19:10

@Loci
Right now I believe the game gives every body part the same weight as a corpse. So seeing a pile of teeth is just as horrifying as seeing a pile of corpses.

(0038317)
Kvall (reporter)
2018-05-10 16:19

Gob is correct in assuming that, and I think Toady predicted an overcorrection in weighting so a tweak of the numbers is likely to follow soon enough.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-07-17 19:59	SteveTheRed	New Issue
2014-07-17 20:13	Talvieno	Note Added: 0026820
2014-07-17 22:49	Amena Ralikema	Note Added: 0026835
2014-07-18 08:52	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0026869
2014-07-18 08:52	Footkerchief	Status	new => resolved
2014-07-18 08:52	Footkerchief	Resolution	open => no change required
2014-07-18 08:52	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-07-20 06:23	SteveTheRed	Note Added: 0027007
2014-07-20 06:23	SteveTheRed	Status	resolved => needs feedback
2014-07-20 06:23	SteveTheRed	Resolution	no change required => reopened
2014-07-20 08:13	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0027012
2014-07-20 08:13	Footkerchief	Status	needs feedback => resolved
2014-07-20 08:13	Footkerchief	Resolution	reopened => no change required
2014-07-20 08:13	Footkerchief	Note Edited: 0027012	View Revisions
2014-08-06 08:49	Footkerchief	Status	resolved => new
2014-08-06 08:49	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007161
2014-08-06 08:49	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007185
2014-08-06 10:15	Kanddak	Note Added: 0028467
2014-08-06 11:35	cephalo	Note Added: 0028475
2014-08-06 13:19	Kanddak	Note Added: 0028483
2014-08-24 07:22	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-24 07:27	Footkerchief	Status	new => needs feedback
2014-09-04 05:16	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029926
2014-09-05 06:16	SteveTheRed	Note Added: 0029957
2014-09-05 06:16	SteveTheRed	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-09-05 07:45	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029959
2014-09-05 07:45	Footkerchief	Status	assigned => needs feedback
2014-09-05 23:32	SteveTheRed	Note Added: 0029981
2014-09-05 23:32	SteveTheRed	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-09-12 09:50	Footkerchief	Status	assigned => needs feedback
2014-09-12 11:45	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0030141
2014-09-12 21:09	SteveTheRed	Note Added: 0030153
2014-09-12 21:09	SteveTheRed	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-09-12 21:16	SteveTheRed	Note Added: 0030154
2014-09-12 22:24	Footkerchief	Status	assigned => confirmed
2015-01-05 14:26	Detros	Issue Monitored: Detros
2015-01-05 14:58	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008501
2015-01-05 16:44	Detros	Note Added: 0031717
2015-01-05 16:47	Detros	Note Edited: 0031717	View Revisions
2015-01-05 19:03	ptb_ptb	Note Added: 0031721
2015-01-19 16:19	Lurdiak	Note Added: 0032008
2015-01-19 16:20	Lurdiak	Note Edited: 0032008	View Revisions
2015-01-19 16:21	Lurdiak	Note Edited: 0032008	View Revisions
2015-01-19 16:22	Lurdiak	Tag Attached: 0.40.24
2015-02-10 14:15	bigcalm	Note Added: 0032206
2015-04-02 02:03	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008895
2015-04-02 03:23	Qrox	Note Added: 0032492
2015-04-20 00:23	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0008923
2015-04-20 00:23	Knight Otu	Issue Monitored: Dr_Hellno
2015-05-03 15:21	scify	Note Added: 0032634
2015-05-28 00:46	dragoon508	Note Added: 0032745
2015-09-12 16:25	hyndis	Note Added: 0033047
2015-09-14 00:47	Detros	Note Added: 0033048
2015-09-14 00:48	Detros	Note Edited: 0033048	View Revisions
2015-12-02 17:10	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0008813
2015-12-08 09:24	Talvieno	Note Added: 0033632
2015-12-08 09:29	Orkel	Note Added: 0033634
2018-04-16 17:27	Huntthetroll	Issue Monitored: Huntthetroll
2018-05-09 12:46	Loci	Relationship added	has duplicate 0010752
2018-05-09 12:49	Loci	Note Added: 0038313
2018-05-09 19:10	ArmokGoB	Note Added: 0038314
2018-05-10 16:19	Kvall	Note Added: 0038317
2018-08-04 08:01	lethosor	Relationship added	has duplicate 0006924

Notes
(0026820) Talvieno (reporter) 2014-07-17 20:13	This greatly amuses me, but I agree, it should only be if the corpse is still alive (i.e., not a corpse). This report explains what's been going on in my refuse stockpile, though - nice job figuring it out.

(0026835) Amena Ralikema (reporter) 2014-07-17 22:49	I think that's intended behavior - squeamish dwarves are horrified by corpses and body parts of sentient creatures. Just make the braver dwarves dump the bodies somewhere the rest won't see them.

(0026869) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-07-18 08:52	Yeah, this seems intentional -- it's reasonable to expect players to put their corpse piles out of sight. Please reopen this or PM me on the forums if it has game-breaking consequences.

(0027007) SteveTheRed (reporter) 2014-07-20 06:23	The refuse stockpile is out of sight - dwarves are being horrified by it when they go to the refuse stockpile to dump other things. So either we need to go through all dwarves and turn off refuse hauling for those of nervous dispositions (that sounds like an enjoyable addition to gameplay :-/ ) or refuse stockpiles could come with special calming notices. Not sure if that's game breaking or just mind numbing though :-)

(0027012) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-07-20 08:13 edited on: 2014-07-20 08:13	Seems like a fortress design challenge more than anything else, but feel free to post in the Suggestions or Dwarf Mode Discussion forums.

(0028467) Kanddak (reporter) 2014-08-06 10:15	As reported by several users elsewhere, merchants in particular seem to be very easily horrified by corpses, particularly of werecreatures. Also, it can sometimes take quite a while to get corpses picked up and hauled away from where they died, because a dwarf will accept the job, go to fetch the corpse, get horrified and cancel the job, accept the job, go back to the corpse, get horrified again, and so on.

(0028475) cephalo (reporter) 2014-08-06 11:35	I haven't checked, but do repeated sightings change the traits of a dwarf to be more hardened to such things? I feel like it's my newer dwarfs that have this problem.

(0028483) Kanddak (reporter) 2014-08-06 13:19	Daonitre reports in 0007161:0028460 that his dwarves became "used to trauma" after seeing a corpse regularly. I'm planning to try putting some corpses in the dining room to harden up my dwarves.

(0029926) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-09-04 05:16	Is this still an issue with the latest morale changes?

(0029957) SteveTheRed (reporter) 2014-09-05 06:16	I had it happen again most recently in 0.40.10 (fresh 0.40.10 world).

(0029959) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-09-05 07:45	What about 0.40.11?

(0029981) SteveTheRed (reporter) 2014-09-05 23:32	I didn't see anything in the 0.40.11 notes about that, and hadn't started on 0.40.11 as DT isn't updated yet. I guess I can give it a go though...

(0030141) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-09-12 11:45	0.40.12 included more morale changes -- testing needed.

(0030153) SteveTheRed (reporter) 2014-09-12 21:09	Bleh. And my 0.40.11 fort just replicated the problem too! Iden Thobteshkad, Farmer cancels Butcher an Animal: Horrified. x3 The dead wolverine is in the refuse stockpile (which is nicely out of the way), but there are DEAD GOBLINS THERE! Arghhh! "She is somewhat fearful in the face of imminent danger." On to 0.40.12, I guess.

(0030154) SteveTheRed (reporter) 2014-09-12 21:16	Saving that game from 0.40.11 and loading it in 0.40.12 resulted in my butcher heading back to the dining room, reacquiring the task, going back to the refuse stockpile to get the wolverine corpse, and being horrified again by the scary dead goblins. So it looks like it's still there in 0.40.12, at least in old saves. I'll start a new fort in 0.40.12 now...

(0031717) Detros (manager) 2015-01-05 16:44 edited on: 2015-01-05 16:47	Still in 40.23. Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=10386 [^] The corpse of cyclops is scaring my dwarves whenever they meet it on dump site or in refuse stockpile. They are "horrified after seeing the cyclops "<NAME>" die". I have also already got several "too horrified" job cancellations but can't show them directly in this save because of 0001430. See also the 4th miner, Cog Nicatkesmal: he joined my fort recently but that cyclops is now nearly a year dead.

(0031721) ptb_ptb (reporter) 2015-01-05 19:03	I would say that the message "Horrified after seeing ___ die" is incorrect, in that they have not seen ___ die, they have just seen his/its corpse. I would think the shock of seeing someone bleed out in front of you is a bit different to passing a sun bleached skeleton for the twentieth time.

(0032008) Lurdiak (reporter) 2015-01-19 16:19 edited on: 2015-01-19 16:21	I've also experienced this in 40.24, there's no way it's intended behavior. It's as traumatic to the dwarves to see a goblin or monster die than it is to see a fellow dwarf. The fact that it still triggers if they see an old rotting corpse is further proof that it's a bug.

(0032206) bigcalm (reporter) 2015-02-10 14:15	I'm currently experiencing in 40.24 ; The practical upshot of sieges is that no matter how well the fight goes, dwarves end up incredibly stressed by all the bodies lying around. Because refuse dumping is one of the lowest priority jobs, it means that the dwarves spend all their time hauling off the goblinite to the various stockpiles, all the while getting continually horrified by the same corpses hundreds of times. This could be fixed in a different way however, make positive influences more positive. If I sequester a "stressed" dwarf with 200k stress with nothing to disturb them (no job ; their own legendary furniture, dining room, statue room, range of lavish meals and range of booze, other stressed companions) - I can expect maybe a ~40k drop in stress over an entire year. So right now for the most jittery dwarves, a single siege is enough to push them such that they will take 5 years to become unstressed.

(0032492) Qrox (reporter) 2015-04-02 03:23	I can confirm this happening in 40.24 too. Also, in the dwarfs' descriptions there are a lot of "horrified" spams. They should be better merged into something like "horrified after seeing <number> goblin corpses". Also, I think stress level should not be linear to the number of corpses they see. There's really no big difference between seeing 100 or 150 corpses than it is between seeing 1 or 51 corpses. (Logarithm perhaps? Beat me if it is already non-linear)

(0032634) scify (reporter) 2015-05-03 15:21	Still seeing this even after the corpse and parts have been destroyed by a lava cleanse, whenever some of my dwarves wander by the square in the refuse pile where it used to be.

(0032745) dragoon508 (reporter) 2015-05-28 00:46	Having the same issue here as well, My dwarves have been freaking out at the sight of a single tooth of a goblin I killed. That must be one scary tooth.

(0033047) hyndis (reporter) 2015-09-12 16:25	Still happening in 40.24, and its bad. It makes a fortress nearly unplayable. Its not even corpses that cause this problem. Bones cause this problem. Even teeth. A macedwarf smashes out the teeth of a goblin. Even after disposing of the goblin corpse, the teeth still somehow terrify my dwarves into throwing endless tantrums. The duration of the negative thought from seeing a corpse is way, way, way, way too long. Maybe it should be a season or two. The duration of these negative thoughts is so long that I don't recall ever seeing these negative thoughts go away. I'm unable to un-stress my dwarves. Even after atom smashing every last bit of refuse, eating masterwork roasts and masterwork booze in a royal dining hall and partying around an artifact well they're still endlessly throwing tantrums. DFTherapist even records their stress levels going up. Their stress isn't going down, its going up. Even in this paradise stress is going up.

(0033048) Detros (manager) 2015-09-14 00:47 edited on: 2015-09-14 00:48	This even-tooth-counts-as-corpse-if-it's-owner-is-dead behaviour is well known in DF. See devlog at http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ [^] on 2014-02-17, for example.

(0033632) Talvieno (reporter) 2015-12-08 09:24	Can confirm that this still happens. http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=11421 [^] as a new save where the queen has seen all animal deaths since the conception of the fortress.

(0033634) Orkel (reporter) 2015-12-08 09:29	Yep also happening to me.

(0038313) Loci (manager) 2018-05-09 12:49	v0.44.10: From the devlog: "Separated thoughts for seeing somebody die and finding the body". Viewing remains (including lost teeth) now causes a "seeing a __'s dead body" thought instead. Some amount of horror upon viewing a collection of sentient remains is very likely intended.

(0038314) ArmokGoB (reporter) 2018-05-09 19:10	@Loci Right now I believe the game gives every body part the same weight as a corpse. So seeing a pile of teeth is just as horrifying as seeing a pile of corpses.

(0038317) Kvall (reporter) 2018-05-10 16:19	Gob is correct in assuming that, and I think Toady predicted an overcorrection in weighting so a tweak of the numbers is likely to follow soon enough.