0008028: Non-goblin members of goblin civilizations hostile to goblin adventurers

Notes
(0029107) Peeps (reporter) 2014-08-15 13:08	Submitting to demon overlords to talk with them makes sense at least. They probably don't like having their minions speaking with them on equal terms.

(0029108) chaosvolt (reporter) 2014-08-15 13:34	Makes sense, yeah. But it still seems a touch inconsistent so I might need to commit some more !!science!! on this. Having her suddenly ramp up to "no quarter mode" because someone else entered the room definitely seems unintended though.

(0029127) BenLubar (reporter) 2014-08-15 19:55	Did you take out the [LOCAL_BANDITRY] on the goblin civ? If that's still there, that is probably the cause of your problem.

(0029131) chaosvolt (reporter) 2014-08-16 03:26 edited on: 2014-08-16 23:30	Generated a world with [LOCAL_BANDITRY] removed to test it, and the local demon rule was still hostile. This time even when I entered the room while yielding. So it seems the demon issue might actually be a token in the generated creature raws. Need to start up another game to test if humans and elves were affected though. EDIT: I'm getting equally weird results involving non-goblin citizens WITHOUT the local banditry tag. Just visited a market, having modded the goblins to build cities because they don't block fast travel. Whole place just erupted into a riot, no one hostile to me but everyone else is just going nuts on each other.

(0036146) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-10 15:49	Glorious soviet old bugs. It seems at some point this was fixed. I recently played a game using my mod, playing a goblin native adventurer. The demonic master of the fort was non-hostile and in fact happy to converse with me. I've yet to find any other non-goblin citizens yet, but I suspect so far it's no longer an issue.

(0036173) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-01-14 00:53 edited on: 2017-01-14 00:56	You are not a actual goblin, you would require to make the goblin civilisation playable (via [SITE_CONTROLLABLE] & [ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] ) then spawn inside the civ as a goblin citizen and or any range of animal men who are already inside the goblin civ. That would be the case for 43_05, the token tags can be found on the DF wiki > http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.31:Entity_token [^] You are playing as a goblin 'outsider' adventurer and being a goblin does not guarantee you any level of diplomatic immunity. Don't feel bad, demon lords don't often have a lot to say anyway (because the new installment of spies has yet to come out to keep them filled in with information)

(0036174) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-14 08:54 edited on: 2017-01-14 09:34	Yeah, thank you. >.o I was playing Adventurecraft and did indeed have the goblin civilization set to [ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE], and spawned in the fort. There's a reason I said goblin-NATIVE, not merely goblin. EDIT: I've only tested adventure mode though, so haven't used the site-controllable token. That's only required for fortress mode. I'd need to resurrect my attempt at Goblin Gulag to test this in fortress mode, but I recall no problems back when I did so last time. That said, even now I've NEVER seen a migrant that isn't the same species as the civilization's normal species, only visitors. So any difference in behavior in fortress mode will be in a different context, as there's no reliable way of knowing whether a non-goblin visitor is a native to your gulag's civ.

(0036191) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-01-21 04:22	Site controllable is Required for playing as a 'native' goblin, as ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE only allows all members of that race inside 'playable civs (dwarf sites with Ω)' or "outsiders" to be acceptable for selection. You are incorrect on it only being applicable to fortress mode. Site controllable offers control to that civilization, which would mean in adventure mode you would start as a goblin dark pit/tower peasant (or with modded military structure, a locally important hero) inside the goblin social structure & civ but be opposed to dwarves & other civs with hostile relations, who will often pass comments at your race and during wartime attack you outright. You would need to cycle sites by repeatedly mashing 'locally important & peasant' options until you land upon a dark pit/tower site. I speak from my own experience with these modifications i made on my own RAW's. As to your question, babies snatched & relocated slaves working as normal citizens that can emigrate can migrate to your fortress as a goblin civilization but your main race will hold the majority population so would be more likely to migrate from cities in range.

(0036201) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-22 09:02 edited on: 2017-01-22 09:09	What? Have you even tested a single world of what you've said? You've got those two tokens mixed up. Direct example of the first bits of the goblin civ in Adventurecraft: [ENTITY:EVIL] [ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] [CREATURE:GOBLIN] [TRANSLATION:GOBLIN] [DIGGER:ITEM_WEAPON_PICK] Seriously, test these things before you start correcting me. I would NOT be talking about how hostile the demonic master of a dark fortress was if I WASN'T starting in an actual dark fortress. >_> EDIT: This is backed up by my own experience with modding, and more importantly actually testing whether I was playing a goblin from a dark fortress or not. Please, actually bother to generate a world with the [ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] placed in the goblin civ, verify that the goblin civs have actually generated and still exist by the time you get to character creation, then see for yourself.

(0036202) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2017-01-22 15:08	Yes i have 'tested' all of those statements, and i quite happily play with native goblin adventurers because i use all my own RAW modding with my recommendations i have made for you that work fine and aren't subject to this issue in my current 43_05 version. > However, i have made a miscalculation in that [ALL_MAIN_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] does indeed allow goblin sites (since i run both site allowance & main pops simultaneously on goblins) I can only apologise and mention that i said it in good faith. > From a logical standpoint, it is possible to infiltrate a demon fortress during peacetime & the goblins are merely hostile and reluctant to speak to you (or you sneak in). So the outsider goblin would have still have been a valid solution to this problem if you hadn't elaborated to be native to the site. > Please try to be civil, i was only trying to impart the knowledge i have gathered from my own modding experiences to help resolve your issue constructively. I recommend that if you have any concerns about your mod package specifications that you contact the creator (in the case that you yourself aren't the creator of the mod) or outreach to the community on the forums. A additional question, did you have your weapon drawn? Given that ethical preferences of might be highlighting you as a threatening target. These are the vanilla entity raws for goblin ethics. [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:REQUIRED] [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:REQUIRED] Instead i would recommend changing the field of [KILL_NEUTRAL] to [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ACCEPTABLE] Another way to test the [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:ACCEPTABLE] versus the vanilla goblin ethics which is reproducible is to mod in a local militia for goblins (via noble structure) and then approach a site guard with a weapon drawn. If the vanilla ethics are in place they will attack you on sight as soon as your weapon is drawn, & if the modded ethics in place they will not aggro. I summarily changed this raw setting from my own experiences of being killed by site guards as a native goblin constantly. > It is the same ethic that causes outpost liasons of civs with those ethics to be skittish.

(0036205) chaosvolt (reporter) 2017-01-22 16:23	Right. Sorry for getting annoyed, but I'd said repeatedly in the process that I did do exactly what you believed was impossible, which should've been a sign to test my claims yourself instead of continuing to say "no it doesn't work" without having tested that. ._.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-08-15 12:56	chaosvolt	New Issue
2014-08-15 13:08	Peeps	Note Added: 0029107
2014-08-15 13:34	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0029108
2014-08-15 13:35	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: adventure mode
2014-08-15 13:35	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: demon
2014-08-15 13:35	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: goblin
2014-08-15 13:35	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: hostility
2014-08-15 13:35	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2014-08-15 13:35	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: modding
2014-08-15 19:55	BenLubar	Note Added: 0029127
2014-08-16 03:26	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0029131
2014-08-16 23:30	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0029131	View Revisions
2017-01-10 15:49	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036146
2017-01-14 00:53	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036173
2017-01-14 00:56	FantasticDorf	Note Edited: 0036173	View Revisions
2017-01-14 08:54	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036174
2017-01-14 09:34	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0036174	View Revisions
2017-01-21 04:22	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036191
2017-01-22 09:02	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036201
2017-01-22 09:09	chaosvolt	Note Edited: 0036201	View Revisions
2017-01-22 15:08	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0036202
2017-01-22 16:23	chaosvolt	Note Added: 0036205

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