0008072: No bee colonies in temperate biomes (only in warm/hot)

(0029258)
Footkerchief (manager)
2014-08-18 14:28

Does 0005685 explain it?

(0029289)
ChamyZurka (reporter)
2014-08-18 23:57
edited on: 2014-08-18 23:58

I embark in
1-Temperate savanna, temperature: Temperate I found 0 colony.
2-Temperate freshwater Marsh, Temperature: Warm I found 3 colonies.
3-Tropical Shrubland, Temperature: Hot I found 5 colonies (2 honney bee)
4-Temperate Grassland, Temperature: Temperate I found 0 colony

So for me, if the temperature is temperate there are any colonies.

(0029306)
Talvieno (reporter)
2014-08-19 08:47

Can anyone confirm this? I'm fairly sure I've never seen it myself...

(0029307)
Knight Otu (manager)
2014-08-19 09:03

It may take some time for colonies to develop, but I've yet to see embarks without colonies after some in-game weeks.

(0029309)
Talvieno (reporter)
2014-08-19 09:22

Agreed. ChamyZurka, could you provide a save with the problem?

(0029321)
Khym Chanur (reporter)
2014-08-19 12:07

Here's an example save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9448 [^]

Notes:

* Not near any mountains (that is, not 0005685).
* Late spring.
* 2x2 embark in a temperate forest.
* Modded dwarves to be [NO_EAT][NO_SLEEP][NO_DRINK].
* Near an ocean, and right next to an elven settlement.
* Have done absolutely nothing except create a crafts workshop, make a colony, and then repeatedly install/remove it.

(0029405)
ChamyZurka (reporter)
2014-08-21 01:26
edited on: 2014-08-22 23:47

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9474 [^]

A 125 years old world size Small
3x3 Embark in Temperate Conifer Forest
Temperature: Temperate
I'm make ans install five hive and wait late spring

(0030219)
Canisaur (reporter)
2014-09-16 13:40

I'm seeing this issue too. I couldn't find any honey bees in temperate biomes, and I saw this bug, so I did some testing. Embarks are either 1 or 2 biomes.

http://pastebin.com/n73F6WAd [^]

To summarize, I genned a new world with PlayNow!, did 12 5x5 embarks across the temperature scale, and found zero colonies of any type unless the embark was ENTIRELY in a Warm or Hot biome.

I'm using version 40.10 with DFHack (to use the 'colonies' command for detection), so this isn't perfect bug report data, but hopefully it helps.

(0032704)
Dwarfu (manager)
2015-05-19 06:22

This appears to be a crowding out issue. I embarked on a 2x2 flat piece of land that did not contain a river or brook, in a temperate conifer forest with temperate temperature. In addition to other vermin I rarely see, I AM getting honey bees. The lean towards crowding is that this game is modded and all the vermin birds were deleted as well as bumble bees. It SEEMS they are only spawning in open space (not under a tree canopy) - every colony I checked had direct access to the sky.

(0032825)
verdantsf (reporter)
2015-06-30 01:11
edited on: 2015-06-30 21:00

Dwarfu might be on to something. After countless searches, I finally have honey bees in a temperate conifer forest with temperate climate. The only difference from previous searches is that the area doesn't have a brook, stream, or river.

Regarding the tree canopy effect, I happened to find a colony under a tree.

(0034205)
Dwarfu (manager)
2015-12-26 17:04

42.04, I have bees in a temperate biome, again in a conifer forest 2x2 flat embark without a river/stream/brook. Same mods as before, with a vastly reduced creature variation. Sky thing was a fluke of that previous embark, as I see some now under a tree. Still leaning towards a crowding effect.

(0035119)
Dame de la Licorne (reporter)
2016-05-10 11:52
edited on: 2016-05-10 15:33

Using 0.42.06 (on OSX El Capitan), I genned 4 different medium-sized worlds, and embarked 20+ times using my "test" setup (which includes a hive and beekeeper, among other things). In all of those tests, I only found colonies (ants/termites/bees) in shrubland/grassland/savanna areas. The only colonies I found in forest (broadleaf/conifer) biomes were on mixed embarks with at least one tile of shrubland/grassland/savanna.

I didn't test deserts or scorching areas.

Note: I had removed ticks/mosquitoes/lice from the raws, and modded in some more surface vermin spiders and underground flora, but I don't know how much (if any) of an effect that would have, since none of the changes affect colony-forming vermin.

The post/thread here has a bit more information from other folks: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158017.msg6990046#msg6990046 [^]

(0035154)
Toady One (administrator)
2016-05-12 15:56

I set up various logs, and from what I could tell, this was all due to freezing winter temperatures. I made soil/soil colony creatures ignore those if they can handle the average subterranean temperature, and that was enough to get bee colonies in temperate forests.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2014-08-18 14:17	ChamyZurka	New Issue
2014-08-18 14:28	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0029258
2014-08-18 14:28	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-08-18 14:28	Footkerchief	Status	new => needs feedback
2014-08-18 14:28	Footkerchief	Relationship added	duplicate of 0005685
2014-08-18 23:57	ChamyZurka	Note Added: 0029289
2014-08-18 23:57	ChamyZurka	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-08-18 23:58	ChamyZurka	Note Edited: 0029289	View Revisions
2014-08-19 06:41	Footkerchief	Summary	No Bee Colony... No colony => No bee colonies in temperate biomes
2014-08-19 08:47	Talvieno	Note Added: 0029306
2014-08-19 09:03	Knight Otu	Note Added: 0029307
2014-08-19 09:22	Talvieno	Note Added: 0029309
2014-08-19 10:15	Footkerchief	Status	assigned => needs feedback
2014-08-19 12:07	Khym Chanur	Note Added: 0029321
2014-08-19 12:07	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2014-08-21 01:26	ChamyZurka	Note Added: 0029405
2014-08-21 01:26	ChamyZurka	Status	needs feedback => assigned
2014-08-22 23:47	ChamyZurka	Note Edited: 0029405	View Revisions
2014-09-16 13:40	Canisaur	Note Added: 0030219
2014-09-16 14:09	Footkerchief	Summary	No bee colonies in temperate biomes => No bee colonies in temperate biomes (only in warm/hot)
2014-09-16 14:11	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	related to 0005685
2014-09-16 14:11	Footkerchief	Status	assigned => confirmed
2015-05-19 06:22	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0032704
2015-05-19 06:22	Dwarfu	Issue Monitored: Dwarfu
2015-06-30 01:11	verdantsf	Note Added: 0032825
2015-06-30 20:57	verdantsf	Note Edited: 0032825	View Revisions
2015-06-30 21:00	verdantsf	Note Edited: 0032825	View Revisions
2015-06-30 21:00	verdantsf	Issue Monitored: verdantsf
2015-12-26 17:04	Dwarfu	Note Added: 0034205
2016-05-10 11:52	Dame de la Licorne	Note Added: 0035119
2016-05-10 11:53	Dame de la Licorne	Issue Monitored: Dame de la Licorne
2016-05-10 15:32	Dame de la Licorne	Note Edited: 0035119	View Revisions
2016-05-10 15:33	Dame de la Licorne	Note Edited: 0035119	View Revisions
2016-05-12 15:56	Toady One	Note Added: 0035154
2016-05-12 15:56	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved
2016-05-12 15:56	Toady One	Fixed in Version	=> Next Version
2016-05-12 15:56	Toady One	Resolution	open => fixed
2016-05-12 15:56	Toady One	Assigned To	Footkerchief => Toady One
2016-05-12 18:20	Dame de la Licorne	Issue End Monitor: Dame de la Licorne
2016-05-13 14:11	Dwarfu	Issue End Monitor: Dwarfu

Notes
(0029258) Footkerchief (manager) 2014-08-18 14:28	Does 0005685 explain it?

(0029289) ChamyZurka (reporter) 2014-08-18 23:57 edited on: 2014-08-18 23:58	I embark in 1-Temperate savanna, temperature: Temperate I found 0 colony. 2-Temperate freshwater Marsh, Temperature: Warm I found 3 colonies. 3-Tropical Shrubland, Temperature: Hot I found 5 colonies (2 honney bee) 4-Temperate Grassland, Temperature: Temperate I found 0 colony So for me, if the temperature is temperate there are any colonies.

(0029306) Talvieno (reporter) 2014-08-19 08:47	Can anyone confirm this? I'm fairly sure I've never seen it myself...

(0029307) Knight Otu (manager) 2014-08-19 09:03	It may take some time for colonies to develop, but I've yet to see embarks without colonies after some in-game weeks.

(0029309) Talvieno (reporter) 2014-08-19 09:22	Agreed. ChamyZurka, could you provide a save with the problem?

(0029321) Khym Chanur (reporter) 2014-08-19 12:07	Here's an example save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9448 [^] Notes: * Not near any mountains (that is, not 0005685). * Late spring. * 2x2 embark in a temperate forest. * Modded dwarves to be [NO_EAT][NO_SLEEP][NO_DRINK]. * Near an ocean, and right next to an elven settlement. * Have done absolutely nothing except create a crafts workshop, make a colony, and then repeatedly install/remove it.

(0029405) ChamyZurka (reporter) 2014-08-21 01:26 edited on: 2014-08-22 23:47	http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9474 [^] A 125 years old world size Small 3x3 Embark in Temperate Conifer Forest Temperature: Temperate I'm make ans install five hive and wait late spring

(0030219) Canisaur (reporter) 2014-09-16 13:40	I'm seeing this issue too. I couldn't find any honey bees in temperate biomes, and I saw this bug, so I did some testing. Embarks are either 1 or 2 biomes. http://pastebin.com/n73F6WAd [^] To summarize, I genned a new world with PlayNow!, did 12 5x5 embarks across the temperature scale, and found zero colonies of any type unless the embark was ENTIRELY in a Warm or Hot biome. I'm using version 40.10 with DFHack (to use the 'colonies' command for detection), so this isn't perfect bug report data, but hopefully it helps.

(0032704) Dwarfu (manager) 2015-05-19 06:22	This appears to be a crowding out issue. I embarked on a 2x2 flat piece of land that did not contain a river or brook, in a temperate conifer forest with temperate temperature. In addition to other vermin I rarely see, I AM getting honey bees. The lean towards crowding is that this game is modded and all the vermin birds were deleted as well as bumble bees. It SEEMS they are only spawning in open space (not under a tree canopy) - every colony I checked had direct access to the sky.

(0032825) verdantsf (reporter) 2015-06-30 01:11 edited on: 2015-06-30 21:00	Dwarfu might be on to something. After countless searches, I finally have honey bees in a temperate conifer forest with temperate climate. The only difference from previous searches is that the area doesn't have a brook, stream, or river. Regarding the tree canopy effect, I happened to find a colony under a tree.

(0034205) Dwarfu (manager) 2015-12-26 17:04	42.04, I have bees in a temperate biome, again in a conifer forest 2x2 flat embark without a river/stream/brook. Same mods as before, with a vastly reduced creature variation. Sky thing was a fluke of that previous embark, as I see some now under a tree. Still leaning towards a crowding effect.

(0035119) Dame de la Licorne (reporter) 2016-05-10 11:52 edited on: 2016-05-10 15:33	Using 0.42.06 (on OSX El Capitan), I genned 4 different medium-sized worlds, and embarked 20+ times using my "test" setup (which includes a hive and beekeeper, among other things). In all of those tests, I only found colonies (ants/termites/bees) in shrubland/grassland/savanna areas. The only colonies I found in forest (broadleaf/conifer) biomes were on mixed embarks with at least one tile of shrubland/grassland/savanna. I didn't test deserts or scorching areas. Note: I had removed ticks/mosquitoes/lice from the raws, and modded in some more surface vermin spiders and underground flora, but I don't know how much (if any) of an effect that would have, since none of the changes affect colony-forming vermin. The post/thread here has a bit more information from other folks: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158017.msg6990046#msg6990046 [^]

(0035154) Toady One (administrator) 2016-05-12 15:56	I set up various logs, and from what I could tell, this was all due to freezing winter temperatures. I made soil/soil colony creatures ignore those if they can handle the average subterranean temperature, and that was enough to get bee colonies in temperate forests.