0005927: Traps Block Wagon Access - Dwarf Fortress Bug Tracker

(0022627)
HiEv (reporter)
2012-05-19 22:13

This change occurred in v0.34.08, but testing shows that fortresses made in earlier versions of DF that were upgraded to v0.34.08 did not have this problem *unless* they added/replaced traps or pressure plates after upgrading.

(0022661)
ag (reporter)
2012-05-22 10:22

Investigated using dfhack: previously traps set building occupancy 2 (Passable in dfhack) in the tile; now they set 7 (Dynamic; implies the need to look at the building to determine if passable). Replacing the value on new traps with 2s makes them passable to wagons again.

(0022664)
Quietust (reporter)
2012-05-22 11:46

Perhaps this is a side effect of the introduction of track stops (which are implemented internally as traps)?

(0022666)
ag (reporter)
2012-05-22 11:50

Yeah, it probably needs special handling code for traps in depot access pathfinding now, since the basic case doesn't apply anymore.

(0022667)
eatatree (reporter)
2012-05-22 12:11

Given that Toady frequently speaks of traps as being over-powerful, is no one certain this change isn't a deliberate nerf to traps? Now you can't trap your depot access route.

(0022827)
Brandon816 (reporter)
2012-06-03 19:09

I could understand that it might be intentional, but it doesn't make since with why people were doing it in the first place: you can't protect yourself at all times if you want to trade. If at the single moment that wagons arrive there isn't access to your depot, the wagons just somehow disappear. They don't wait around for you to give them access. People were trapping their depot access because it was the only way to protect their fort without leaving it open 24/7 to hostile forces, mostly the ones that couldn't be seen like snatchers and ambushers. Why would Toady intentionally nerf traps like this without making wagons wait around for awhile too?

(0022828)
kwieland (reporter)
2012-06-03 19:12
edited on: 2012-06-20 14:44

Actually, it is possible to make a fort wagon accessible but still have traps. You just have to be smart about the layout. And exploit the pathing of hostiles. What gets me is the caravans that spawn on the edge right next to goblins and get massacred before you can even escort them. The hauling jobs alone stall the fort for a solid month!

(0023062)
Altaree (reporter)
2012-06-20 06:59

Minecart tracks also block wagons!

(0023438)
lcf (reporter)
2012-08-11 00:53
edited on: 2012-08-11 00:56

It's still there as of v0.34.11 (Linux, Ubuntu 12.04 x64).

I was very confused why trade depot couldn't be accessed with normal fortress layout that worked fine in previous versions - I've re-checked ramps, all the tunnels, was wondering if some trees are not obstacle, but wouldn't think traps can be the issue (until read about that on DF2012 wiki).

This basically prevents making secure (behind traps) trade depot, and forces me to expose depot to enemies - shouldn't this issue get higher priority?

(0023441)
kwieland (reporter)
2012-08-11 17:40

@lcf - Rethink security. you can have a 1x1 "pasture" for war dogs that alert you to thieves, and badies will always path straight through traps. If you think about it, you can come up with a secure way to do it.

(0023713)
caldfir (reporter)
2012-11-13 09:30

This feels like an intentional change, and only makes security planning moderately more difficult, but it isn't in the changelog so it is probably not intended.

To be honest I prefer it this way, since it encourages the player to be more active with security design, and trapping up your depot doesn't stop caravans from getting ambushed out in the middle of nowhere anyway, which seems to be what annoys people most.

(0023771)
lando242 (reporter)
2012-12-07 07:57

I've got an even better side effect. I didn't know about this change and right in the middle of a Human caravan I built some traps. One of the traps was completed with a wagon on top of it. This froze the wagon to the spot and backed up the whole line of five wagons! They sat there for about 2 months and then DECONSTRUCTED! It dropped all of their goods into five neat little piles, all in a row. The pack animals, merchants and guards then all preceded to wander to the edge of the map and mill around around until the trading time was complete. They left without any sort of problems, like a normal trading session. The wood for the wagon was on top of the pile and listed as "wagon wood logs". I can't seem to use them for anything and they just sit there.

(0023807)
Ookpik (reporter)
2012-12-28 20:10

I think the problem might be more complex than this, since I had a fort going in vanilla 34.11 for around six years with my depot in a 5-wide hallway behind around 30 traps (stone + cage + weapon) without even realizing there might be a problem down the line. But then very suddenly it stopped working and the D's all turned red. I can't figure out what changed: I just got the message one year that the traders bypassed my depot, when everything had been fine before. I hadn't changed my hallway/depot setup in literally years of game time.

If this is intentional I personally hate it. I know hardcore players like to be all Leonardo with their fortress design but I like the option of having passive defenses. But even if it is intentional, it should be consistent -- why did my depot suddenly stop working?

(0023846)
Hairy Dude (reporter)
2013-02-08 15:56

I had my 3 wide entrance blocked, by a 3x3 square of cage traps as it turned out. I set them to be removed, but the dwarf caravan came in while the front six were still in place.

(Personally I don't mind the change. Traps are definitely too powerful at the moment.)

(0026416)
SteveTheRed (reporter)
2014-07-14 21:25

This is still an issue in 0.40.03. Also still very annoying, and one of the things I'd hoped would have been fixed in 0.40 :-(

(0028832)
weegth (reporter)
2014-08-11 14:18

I personally like this a lot. It forces the player to leave at least the depot relatively undefended instead of hiding anything valuable behind 9000 traps. Please don't "fix" this! Although being able to build a trap right under a wagon does seem like a minor bug.

(0028839)
Talvieno (reporter)
2014-08-11 15:42

I personally like it too.

(0028869)
Daonitre (reporter)
2014-08-12 06:12

This should be closed as intended / not a bug.

(0028870)
smjjames (reporter)
2014-08-12 06:49

Ultimately, since this one is so debateable, it's up to Toady One to decide whether this is actually intended or not.

(0028875)
Talvieno (reporter)
2014-08-12 08:35

So let's ask. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.new#new [^]

(0029047)
Toady One (administrator)
2014-08-14 12:44

My recollection is that this was an intentional change, and the code is consistent with that, though I don't have any specific notes about it. I like not having wagons going back and forth over pressure plates, anyway, though suggestions are welcome in the suggestion forum.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2012-05-19 18:30	Vaal	New Issue
2012-05-19 22:13	HiEv	Note Added: 0022627
2012-05-20 01:23	Knight Otu	Tag Attached: Intentional/Expected?
2012-05-22 08:46	Homerius	Issue Monitored: Homerius
2012-05-22 10:22	ag	Note Added: 0022661
2012-05-22 11:46	Quietust	Note Added: 0022664
2012-05-22 11:50	ag	Note Added: 0022666
2012-05-22 12:11	eatatree	Note Added: 0022667
2012-05-24 14:08	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005949
2012-06-03 08:37	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0005982
2012-06-03 19:09	Brandon816	Note Added: 0022827
2012-06-03 19:12	kwieland	Note Added: 0022828
2012-06-20 06:59	Altaree	Note Added: 0023062
2012-06-20 07:03	Telarin	Issue Monitored: Telarin
2012-06-20 07:40	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0006040
2012-06-20 14:44	kwieland	Note Edited: 0022828	View Revisions
2012-08-11 00:53	lcf	Note Added: 0023438
2012-08-11 00:54	lcf	Note Edited: 0023438	View Revisions
2012-08-11 00:56	lcf	Note Edited: 0023438	View Revisions
2012-08-11 01:00	lcf	Issue Monitored: lcf
2012-08-11 17:40	kwieland	Note Added: 0023441
2012-11-13 09:30	caldfir	Note Added: 0023713
2012-11-18 12:18	arclance	Issue Monitored: arclance
2012-12-07 07:57	lando242	Note Added: 0023771
2012-12-28 20:10	Ookpik	Note Added: 0023807
2012-12-28 20:11	Ookpik	Issue Monitored: Ookpik
2013-02-08 15:56	Hairy Dude	Note Added: 0023846
2014-03-26 00:06	ag	Issue Monitored: ag
2014-07-14 21:25	SteveTheRed	Note Added: 0026416
2014-08-11 09:25	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007404
2014-08-11 09:25	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0007953
2014-08-11 14:18	weegth	Note Added: 0028832
2014-08-11 15:42	Talvieno	Note Added: 0028839
2014-08-12 06:12	Daonitre	Note Added: 0028869
2014-08-12 06:49	smjjames	Note Added: 0028870
2014-08-12 08:35	Talvieno	Note Added: 0028875
2014-08-12 09:47	Talvieno	Issue Monitored: Talvieno
2014-08-13 13:27	Footkerchief	Assigned To	=> Footkerchief
2014-08-13 13:27	Footkerchief	Status	new => confirmed
2014-08-14 12:44	Toady One	Note Added: 0029047
2014-08-14 12:44	Toady One	Status	confirmed => resolved
2014-08-14 12:44	Toady One	Resolution	open => no change required
2014-08-14 12:44	Toady One	Assigned To	Footkerchief => Toady One
2014-08-14 14:40	Talvieno	Issue End Monitor: Talvieno
2015-06-02 04:40	Telarin	Issue End Monitor: Telarin

Notes
(0022627) HiEv (reporter) 2012-05-19 22:13	This change occurred in v0.34.08, but testing shows that fortresses made in earlier versions of DF that were upgraded to v0.34.08 did not have this problem unless they added/replaced traps or pressure plates after upgrading.

(0022661) ag (reporter) 2012-05-22 10:22	Investigated using dfhack: previously traps set building occupancy 2 (Passable in dfhack) in the tile; now they set 7 (Dynamic; implies the need to look at the building to determine if passable). Replacing the value on new traps with 2s makes them passable to wagons again.

(0022664) Quietust (reporter) 2012-05-22 11:46	Perhaps this is a side effect of the introduction of track stops (which are implemented internally as traps)?

(0022666) ag (reporter) 2012-05-22 11:50	Yeah, it probably needs special handling code for traps in depot access pathfinding now, since the basic case doesn't apply anymore.

(0022667) eatatree (reporter) 2012-05-22 12:11	Given that Toady frequently speaks of traps as being over-powerful, is no one certain this change isn't a deliberate nerf to traps? Now you can't trap your depot access route.

(0022827) Brandon816 (reporter) 2012-06-03 19:09	I could understand that it might be intentional, but it doesn't make since with why people were doing it in the first place: you can't protect yourself at all times if you want to trade. If at the single moment that wagons arrive there isn't access to your depot, the wagons just somehow disappear. They don't wait around for you to give them access. People were trapping their depot access because it was the only way to protect their fort without leaving it open 24/7 to hostile forces, mostly the ones that couldn't be seen like snatchers and ambushers. Why would Toady intentionally nerf traps like this without making wagons wait around for awhile too?

(0022828) kwieland (reporter) 2012-06-03 19:12 edited on: 2012-06-20 14:44	Actually, it is possible to make a fort wagon accessible but still have traps. You just have to be smart about the layout. And exploit the pathing of hostiles. What gets me is the caravans that spawn on the edge right next to goblins and get massacred before you can even escort them. The hauling jobs alone stall the fort for a solid month!

(0023062) Altaree (reporter) 2012-06-20 06:59	Minecart tracks also block wagons!

(0023438) lcf (reporter) 2012-08-11 00:53 edited on: 2012-08-11 00:56	It's still there as of v0.34.11 (Linux, Ubuntu 12.04 x64). I was very confused why trade depot couldn't be accessed with normal fortress layout that worked fine in previous versions - I've re-checked ramps, all the tunnels, was wondering if some trees are not obstacle, but wouldn't think traps can be the issue (until read about that on DF2012 wiki). This basically prevents making secure (behind traps) trade depot, and forces me to expose depot to enemies - shouldn't this issue get higher priority?

(0023441) kwieland (reporter) 2012-08-11 17:40	@lcf - Rethink security. you can have a 1x1 "pasture" for war dogs that alert you to thieves, and badies will always path straight through traps. If you think about it, you can come up with a secure way to do it.

(0023713) caldfir (reporter) 2012-11-13 09:30	This feels like an intentional change, and only makes security planning moderately more difficult, but it isn't in the changelog so it is probably not intended. To be honest I prefer it this way, since it encourages the player to be more active with security design, and trapping up your depot doesn't stop caravans from getting ambushed out in the middle of nowhere anyway, which seems to be what annoys people most.

(0023771) lando242 (reporter) 2012-12-07 07:57	I've got an even better side effect. I didn't know about this change and right in the middle of a Human caravan I built some traps. One of the traps was completed with a wagon on top of it. This froze the wagon to the spot and backed up the whole line of five wagons! They sat there for about 2 months and then DECONSTRUCTED! It dropped all of their goods into five neat little piles, all in a row. The pack animals, merchants and guards then all preceded to wander to the edge of the map and mill around around until the trading time was complete. They left without any sort of problems, like a normal trading session. The wood for the wagon was on top of the pile and listed as "wagon wood logs". I can't seem to use them for anything and they just sit there.

(0023807) Ookpik (reporter) 2012-12-28 20:10	I think the problem might be more complex than this, since I had a fort going in vanilla 34.11 for around six years with my depot in a 5-wide hallway behind around 30 traps (stone + cage + weapon) without even realizing there might be a problem down the line. But then very suddenly it stopped working and the D's all turned red. I can't figure out what changed: I just got the message one year that the traders bypassed my depot, when everything had been fine before. I hadn't changed my hallway/depot setup in literally years of game time. If this is intentional I personally hate it. I know hardcore players like to be all Leonardo with their fortress design but I like the option of having passive defenses. But even if it is intentional, it should be consistent -- why did my depot suddenly stop working?

(0023846) Hairy Dude (reporter) 2013-02-08 15:56	I had my 3 wide entrance blocked, by a 3x3 square of cage traps as it turned out. I set them to be removed, but the dwarf caravan came in while the front six were still in place. (Personally I don't mind the change. Traps are definitely too powerful at the moment.)

(0026416) SteveTheRed (reporter) 2014-07-14 21:25	This is still an issue in 0.40.03. Also still very annoying, and one of the things I'd hoped would have been fixed in 0.40 :-(

(0028832) weegth (reporter) 2014-08-11 14:18	I personally like this a lot. It forces the player to leave at least the depot relatively undefended instead of hiding anything valuable behind 9000 traps. Please don't "fix" this! Although being able to build a trap right under a wagon does seem like a minor bug.

(0028839) Talvieno (reporter) 2014-08-11 15:42	I personally like it too.

(0028869) Daonitre (reporter) 2014-08-12 06:12	This should be closed as intended / not a bug.

(0028870) smjjames (reporter) 2014-08-12 06:49	Ultimately, since this one is so debateable, it's up to Toady One to decide whether this is actually intended or not.

(0028875) Talvieno (reporter) 2014-08-12 08:35	So let's ask. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140544.new#new [^]

(0029047) Toady One (administrator) 2014-08-14 12:44	My recollection is that this was an intentional change, and the code is consistent with that, though I don't have any specific notes about it. I like not having wagons going back and forth over pressure plates, anyway, though suggestions are welcome in the suggestion forum.