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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0010312Dwarf FortressCivilizations/Entities -- Generalpublic2017-10-21 09:052018-03-24 19:13
ReporterFantasticDorf 
Assigned To 
PrioritynormalSeveritytrivialReproducibilitysometimes
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version0.43.05 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0010312: Goblins are only capable of having 1 army based at the capital
DescriptionBecause goblins have 1 generated [MILITARY_STRATEGY] noble, and virtually no other nobles to also do [MILITARY_STRATEGY] actions in towers other than the capital where the demon leader & general are stationed, they can only lead 1 army at a time rather than multiple armies using delegates from multiple sites.

This extends the distance that the general has to travel making warfare very slow & grinding, there are no goblins capable of [MILITARY_STRATEGY] like militia commanders in dwarven civ settlements for local goblin market settlements (non-demon occupied towers, with local goblin pops).

The general will return to their site position afterwards. Issue relates to reports of goblin sieges being infrequent (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8754 [^])
Steps To ReproduceWait a very long time for a siege to walk all the way from the goblin capital rather than a non-capital dark tower, capture the goblin general to suspend further attacks. (until a new general is appointed to lead)

More reliably, because the [MILITARY_STRATEGY] noble may be busy war-mongering to tame creatures, they will bring mostly only beak dogs & trolls when sieges do arrive (depending on selection of semi-sapients around the vicinity of the tower)

The modding observation is to add a [MILITARY_STRATEGY] and basic [MILITARY_GOALS] nobles to every goblin market province, and then follow battles in world generation on multiple attacks being led by different leaders, usually more effectively.
Additional InformationQuote from the DF wiki "Human and goblin civilizations occasionally have generals as one of their variable positions, but they aren't guaranteed." verification needed whether [VARIABLE:POSITIONS] renews or consistently creates these positions needed for civs. ( http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:General [^] )

Easy fix & consistent spawning of [GENERAL] position regardless of above point is achieved by copy-pasting [GENERAL] from dwarven positions and making minor alterations, once set, a goblin civ citizen will always fill in the position once the last one "retires" for consistency as appointed by the demon monarch, who is more permanent generated position.
Tagsdark tower, goblin, invader, position, wars
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-  Notes
(0038014)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2018-03-24 11:06

 Hmm. You said have a raw-defined position appointed by a generated position? I can see this causing load errors though.
(0038017)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2018-03-24 13:05

 In my experience modding it in such a way to exist it has always been fufilled without fault as long as there is remaining civilization members.

Part of this comes through killing the last leader yourself, in which @Max succeeded by killing a dragon who assumed control of a site and transferred it to his current adventurer to become the 'master', a title associated to demon lords. Finding the thread for a link is still pending.

Part of the issue report is the reliance on this singular noble, when other civilizations have commander subordinates too that do not have to have a participant role on a site level. In whichever circumstances not having their tenure refreshed by cause of faulty generation or the player holding a general hostage without regeneration stops the civ from functioning.
(0038019)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2018-03-24 13:50

 No no, I'm talking about this bit:

> as appointed by the demon monarch, who is more permanent generated position.

This implies something like [APPOINTED_BY:MASTER] or whatever, which by all rights should only load properly in an already-generated world, because from a fresh start the position ID it's told to look for doesn't yet exist.
(0038021)
FantasticDorf (reporter)
2018-03-24 14:37
edited on: 2018-03-24 15:39

 Demon leader (or least the dark tower site leader) are referred in code as the [MONARCH] (like the dwarf one), in modding attempts such as using my suggested [GENERAL] they assign correctly and consistently like i've mentioned.

Asserting and overriding generated positions are easier if you know what ones to expect, raw implemented [GENERAL] replaced the generated [GENERAL] that was going to spawn with a raw implemented [APPOINTED_BY:MONARCH] to correctly link it back to the demon leader's tag seamlessly with no fault by my playtesting.
_________________________________

Adding more [MILITARY_STRATEGY] nobles however makes the sole reliance on the general redundant and manages the issue in which if the general position is left vacant there are still other leaders to fight in battles in worldgen & in fortress mode.
(0038025)
chaosvolt (reporter)
2018-03-24 19:13
edited on: 2018-03-27 12:21

 So I've messed around with this. Thus far, barring one instance of a post-worldgen war (these seem to play by different rules outright), it seems only generals can lead armies:

Dramatis Personae:
* Urir Honorscale. Became a lord in 3 until he died during a site dispute.
* Citu Pranknumbers. Became a lady in 12, finished what he started, died of old age in 46.
* Kisho Twistmatched. Became a lady in 1, waged one site dispute, died of old age in 45.
* Ngerxung Mineblack. Become a general in 10, got eaten by a giant leopard in 39.
* Bosa Dungeoncolored. Became a general in 14, got shanked by her fellow goblin in 66.
* Sitsu Foughtloins. Became a general in 16, died of old age in 66.
* Astri Urgecontrolled. Replaced Sitsu as general in 66, died like a chump in 68.
* Nelti Buffroast. Replaced Astri as general in 69, finished the war before a giant leopard ate him in 78
* Gel Stuckhouse. Became a lady in 70, waged a site dispute, died of old age in 115.
* Mave Realmsgift. Random hearthperson leading a random-ass campaign in 125, and got killed like a dumbass.

Note that these were with raw-defined versions of lords given MILITARY_STRATEGY that seems to suggest your edited info isn't correct. ._.

EDIT: To clarify, the nature of the test consisted of editing in a mocked-up version of lords to replace the use of generated lords for goblins and humans. These positions additionally had the "military strategy" responsibility added in (uncertain if generated lords have this token), to see if site-level lords would participate in worldgen campaigns. The end result was no result from vanilla.

EDIT 2: Test was done in what is (as of this writing) the current version, 44.07. Without use of DFHack or other things liable to mess things up.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2017-10-21 09:05 FantasticDorf New Issue
2017-10-21 09:15 FantasticDorf Issue Monitored: FantasticDorf
2017-10-21 09:17 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: dark tower
2017-10-21 09:17 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: goblin
2017-10-21 09:17 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: invader
2017-10-21 09:17 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: position
2017-10-21 09:17 FantasticDorf Tag Attached: wars
2018-03-24 11:06 chaosvolt Note Added: 0038014
2018-03-24 11:06 chaosvolt Issue Monitored: chaosvolt
2018-03-24 13:05 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0038017
2018-03-24 13:50 chaosvolt Note Added: 0038019
2018-03-24 14:37 FantasticDorf Note Added: 0038021
2018-03-24 15:39 FantasticDorf Note Edited: 0038021 View Revisions
2018-03-24 19:13 chaosvolt Note Added: 0038025
2018-03-24 19:14 chaosvolt Note Edited: 0038025 View Revisions
2018-03-27 12:12 chaosvolt Note Edited: 0038025 View Revisions
2018-03-27 12:21 chaosvolt Note Edited: 0038025 View Revisions

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