0003259: Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack were-citizens, merchants/traders, guards, or liaison

Notes
(0012742) kuketski (reporter) 2010-09-17 01:57	Do you have a save?

(0012743) kregoth1 (reporter) 2010-09-17 01:57	to me that sounds like a pretty NORMAL tantrum spiral. You probably had a bunch of dwarfs get upset over the deaths of the 10 that died from the caravan guards. When they tantrum and killed others it can cause what is known as a tantrum spiral. http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Tantrum_spiral [^]

(0012745) amlor (reporter) 2010-09-17 02:23	I know about TS. Nope, nobody was upset and they were not fighting unequipped. And immigrants arrived after approx. one year :) I'll upload the save later today or tomorrow.

(0012751) Eugenitor (reporter) 2010-09-17 07:02	This is known as a "Loyalty Cascade".

(0012754) Ducky (reporter) 2010-09-17 08:40	Sounds like the caravan guards were from your parent civilization, and the differing factions the dwarfs belonged you became hostile to each other. When that happens, they start slaughtering each other indiscriminately. I did it once in adventure mode by wrestling a donkey.

(0012763) amlor (reporter) 2010-09-17 11:51	Oh, so it's not a bug, right?

(0012764) Eugenitor (reporter) 2010-09-17 12:08	It is a bug, but it's not a new bug...

(0013585) ethanb (reporter) 2010-11-02 08:03 edited on: 2010-12-09 21:02	Don't think I would call it a bug at all - it's proper actor motivation (those people just killed our fellow dwarves! WTF! They must be berserk - get them!) It could stand to be fleshed out with some player feedback though. Maybe an announcement like "A renegade faction has broken away from The Bolts of Splitting!" would be good. Then the "traitors" could be explicitly delineated as a new entity, and dwarves could join them or band against them depending on personalities and family/friendship ties. That way if the "revolution" is popular enough your fortress would effectively secede from the parent civ.

(0013643) Logical2u (manager) 2010-11-06 08:49	Asteroide provided this save : http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3044 [^] LoSbaccacc provided this save : http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2716 [^]

(0014484) Gero (reporter) 2010-12-09 18:02 edited on: 2010-12-09 18:03	I had this happen to me on my second fort. Everyone started killing each other after I ordered my squad to attack the dwarven caravan, and from then on out everyone was acting like all other dwarves (and pets) were the enemy and running away from them, and causing mass job interrupted messages. Some got stuck in loops where they would walk back and forth, attempting one task, stopping, then attempting another before stopping and going back to the first one. Dwarves stopped eating, drinking and stopped responding to nearly all orders in general. Went from 60 some-odd dwarves to 10. The save before the chaos started: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3546 [^]

(0014485) Quietust (reporter) 2010-12-09 21:07 edited on: 2011-01-07 06:02	I just tried doing this with an alternate savefile, and this is what turned up in the dwarf's Thoughts and Preferences page: "She is a member of The Ashen Lenses. She is a former member of The Hall of Deities. She is an enemy of The Hall of Deities. She is the Militia Commander of The Ashen Lenses." Another dwarf that was not involved in the attack has the following: "He is a citizen of The Hall of Deities. He is a member of The Ashen Lenses." Once he bumped into the above renegade, it changed into: "He is a citizen of The Hall of Deities. He is a former member of The Ashen Lenses. He is an enemy of The Ashen Lenses." As I moved more soldiers into the combat area, the following pattern seemed to emerge: * Attacking a member of the Civilization but an enemy of the Group makes the dwarf an enemy of the Civilization but not an enemy of the Group; since the entire fortress is a member of both the Civilization and the Group, this dwarf becomes hostile to everybody in the fortress (and probably also the caravan) * Attacking a member of the Group but an enemy of the Civilization makes the dwarf an enemy of the Group but not an enemy of the Civilization; for the same reason as above, this dwarf becomes hostile to everyone in the fortress (but probably not the caravan). A simple way to solve this would be to make the dwarf become an enemy of both the civilization and the fortress's local group, which would be most easily done by just making the dwarf immediately go Berserk (since it'd have the same outcome). A special message about the dwarf going renegade could also serve as a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatTheHellPlayer [^] moment.

(0014487) ethanb (reporter) 2010-12-09 21:20 edited on: 2010-12-09 21:32	So in other words, it almost perfectly matches what I said above about being completely logical actor motivation... I'm strongly against the "bug" label on this one, but I think that player feedback should be enhanced a lot to show the tension and secession. Maybe even a popup dialog when a kill order is given to members of the same entity ("Are you sure you want to rebel against The Hall of Deities? Y/N") And there should be more opportunities for dwarves to join the splinter group (if there aren't already - as I said, not enough player feedback.) But according to your testing, it sounds like assigning every dwarf in the fort to the militia and telling them to kill the caravan when it arrives should actually cause a civil war (without any means of suing for peace at the moment, but that'll come one day.) Instead of immigrants, the parent civ will send... well, immigrants, but they'll attack on sight as if they were trying to reclaim a splintered town that had fortified itself against its "proper" ruler. (edit: had some misreading here, removed it)

(0014548) Gero (reporter) 2010-12-11 23:37 edited on: 2010-12-11 23:38	At some point the bug label could be removed, given proper treatment of the issue, but as it is, it causes your soldiers to kill your dwarves and can cause an entire fortress to be unable to function with no explanation. That's really not fun to experience as a new player. Not even "Fun" fun. Until going rebel has been expanded and allows you to still function, I'd recommend maybe not being allowed to issue kill orders on other dwarves period. Seems to me the quickest and easiest solution until the scenario has been developed more.

(0015932) Footkerchief (manager) 2011-03-07 16:04	Reminder sent to: amlor, Gero, Quietust Does this bug still occur in 31.21?

(0015933) Footkerchief (manager) 2011-03-07 16:06	Styledatol posted a save at 0003423:0013936: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=3427 [^] troas posted a save at 0002913: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=2868 [^]

(0017501) bobbens (reporter) 2011-04-24 12:14	Just got this when killing a mad friendly donky in 31.25. So yes, it does still happen.

(0018706) Knight Otu (manager) 2011-09-11 01:40	Zwei posted a save at 0004889

(0023173) Samthere (reporter) 2012-07-06 06:43	I can confirm that this happened to me in 34.11. Goblin siege animals were captured, tamed, and released. The military was assigned to kill them, and then the military dwarves started massacring dwarves and pets, while civilian dwarves were cancelling jobs due to being interrupted, as if by hostiles.

(0023224) toybasher (reporter) 2012-07-13 17:35	I can reproduce this in 34.11. I told my army to attack a dwarven caravan, suddenly, everyone started killing eachother. I even had a dwarven baby punch a farmer's skull through his brain, killing him instantly.

(0023348) nshapter (reporter) 2012-07-24 13:03	http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6706 [^] savegame from 34.11 showing post werecreature military loyalty failure

(0024756) Quietust (reporter) 2014-05-12 12:45	In case it isn't clear, this is definitely a bug and needs to be fixed - Toady went to significant lengths to fix the "civil war bug" in earlier versions of the game (which is exactly what this bug is), and military attack orders are simply not properly checking whether they will trigger a civil war when followed.

(0028269) gaite (reporter) 2014-08-04 07:16	A kill order doesn't seem to be necessary - I had dwarves attacking each other immediately after seeing a werebeast citizen transform back. The military was training downstairs before it started and made no move to attack the werebeast. Save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9277 [^]

(0028275) 4maskwolf (reporter) 2014-08-04 09:11 edited on: 2014-08-04 09:13	Having a creature go berserk by any means other than a failed mood seems to trigger a loyalty cascade upon attacking. Not something I'd post a bug report about, since it only comes up in modding, but I've seen it happen many a time with rage mists. What I'm talking about is something that I noted in .34.11, haven't tested it since, but it is likely still around.

(0028280) gaite (reporter) 2014-08-04 09:43	Werebeasts are in the vanilla game, and dwarves can go berserk if they're miserable/very tired, so it affects more than mods.

(0030948) Frogging101 (reporter) 2014-11-10 10:53 edited on: 2014-11-10 10:54	Still happens in 0.40.15. Look at this image: http://www.fastquake.com/images/df_werearmadillo_lc.png [^] Here you can see a dwarf transforming into a werebeast, and then being struck down. After the werebeast is struck down, the squad that killed it starts murdering citizens for no apparent reason. 5 dwarves die, and then everything goes back to normal. Bizarre. I am certain that nobody got infected or killed by the werebeast; I checked Legends. This also happened when I ordered them to kill a berserk dwarf. They kill the berserk dwarf and then turn on the citizenry. That time, 18 died and then the fighting ended. I'm confused about this because I thought loyalty cascades ended only when one side wiped out the other; in this case they kill some random people and then stop.

(0034833) Nikinyo (reporter) 2016-03-12 09:53 edited on: 2016-03-12 17:07	Loyalty cascade-like event just happened in my fort. Some visiting humans suddenly became hostile. After that, most tavern patrons get slaughtered and elven caravan gets scared away. Then everything goes quiet. Not exactly sure what caused it, but it must have something to do with goblin army that recently arrived. I don't know if it constitutes as a loyalty cascade or some other bug, so I decided to post it here. Here is a save file from moments before it all happens: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=11844 [^] I'm using PyLNP with DF version 0.42.06. Edit: I reloaded from backup save a season earlier. Masacare definitely starts soon after goblins arrive, but before my military starts fighting them.

(0034834) Shonai_Dweller (reporter) 2016-03-12 17:36	Fights between completely different entities are a different issue to regular loyalty cascades. Also they're probably a somewhat opaque 'feature' rather than a bug. Toady mentioned in his own devlog visitors attacking each other due to off-screen disputes. This seems similar (siege starts, thus putting you at war with another civ, relationship to visitors is now different).

(0036403) grand sage (reporter) 2017-04-10 11:30	I documented this problem in my fort to the forums, check http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163692.msg7418641#msg7418641 [^] so, its not resolved yet...

(0039730) Orkel (reporter) 2020-01-30 19:12 edited on: 2020-01-30 19:17	This is still a problem in 0.47.01 Tavern brawls and tantrum fights can cause loyalty cascades that kill off a large amount of the fort's population (mine went twice from 100+ dwarves to just a couple dozen). Same with killing berserk dwarves (after killing the berserk dwarf, the soldiers started killing eachother with their weapons, ended with 3 out of 10 soldiers dead).

(0039732) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2020-01-31 03:41	With dwarves migrating much of everywhere for religious reasons in 0.47.01, often your migrants are a composition of ex-human/elf/other dwarf civ residents moving about in world generation. Similarly, visitors previously were noted to burst into violence when sieges came by use of pit zones; 0011133 & 0010870 on ver: 0.44.12 implied to be related to being spies.

(0039733) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2020-01-31 03:54	On Discord, user Zapdos (no alias here or on the forum i think) posted this message and a screenshot of a interrogation afterwards of a loyalty cascade in which was prompted by the attempted theft of a artifact on the fortress map. Message (( https://puu.sh/F5BVl/f1719223f7.jpg [^] )) Closeup of interrogation report (( https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/245937631848824833/672633454348730388/image0.jpg [^] )) Whether this is transparent enough and reported correctly or not will matter in relation to villans being a causation versus factors in previous versions.

(0039992) lordlemonpie (reporter) 2020-02-09 16:22	Was about to report this, haven't had a loyalty cascade this big from killing a were citizen before in other .4x editions, but here is a .47.02 save with my spearmaster going on a rampage after their squad easily dispatched of a were-elephant infestation. http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14776 [^] Also had a tiny little loyalty cascade after a were-elephant visitor (which also was a convicted criminal/villain) was killed in that same save, but that only ended up killing two of my dwarves. Not nearly as gamebreaking.

(0040039) EricBlank (reporter) 2020-02-13 11:02	I just had a loyalty cascade caused by killing a berserk dwarf after failing a mood. Everyone was in decent spirits/not particularly stressed before the incident. Here is a save of that; http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14794 [^] Game version 47.02 I have also had a loyalty cascade begin in 47.01 after killing a visitor that was trying to escape with an artifact. That save was lost, but I would presume easily reproducible by trapping a visitor as they're trying to escape with an artifact and killing them.

(0040287) Kijiro (reporter) 2020-03-01 19:12	This might be fixed in version 47.04 I noticed a save that had a loyalty cascade in 47.03 did not have one in 47.04. This was an attacking army with Dwarves in it. I have not tested this on anything else.

(0040324) eviljapyay (reporter) 2020-03-07 06:47	This is worse than ever in 47.04, just FALLING DOWN ON SOMEONE triggers the dwarves and they will absolutely kill eachother. Depending on the murderers personality they might just have a total breakdown as well because of the negative thoughts caused by it. On top of all that, if the dwarves have any space to run they will run back and forth for days which can cause some serious lag

(0040325) FantasticDorf (reporter) 2020-03-07 08:00	Dwarves are easily triggered to fight in a instance of joining a existing fight in 47.04 by their need triggers within 0011436 . By that link, the more actors that join a fight for their own reasons of quick need satisfaction through 'joining a existing conflict' are making it wider by a butterfly effect. Pitting & bumping into someone interred should definitely be investigated though as a quarter combat-issue , here's some relevant reports for dwarves & visitors going spontaneously crazy 0010870 which going by Toady's comment is still particular influencial 0009650 (( http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9650#c35258 [^] ))

(0040326) Orkel (reporter) 2020-03-07 10:14	Can confirm @eviljapyay I reported in one of the other loyalty cascade tickets that a bunch of dwarves that started wrestling a goblin thief, started attacking eachother, presumably because of a stray dwarf-to-dwarf tumble/charge in the same tile.

(0040391) EricBlank (reporter) 2020-03-20 23:46 edited on: 2020-03-20 23:48	Here is another save of a loyalty cascade about to start; read the file description for further details. I've run the save from this point three times and twice the dwarf in question threw a tantrum and hit someone. After that all hell breaks loose. Again version 47.04 http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14951 [^] This bug has taken over another successful fortress of mine, but my last save was after that cascade began, so I assumed it would be of little use.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-09-17 01:31	amlor	New Issue
2010-09-17 01:57	kuketski	Note Added: 0012742
2010-09-17 01:57	kregoth1	Note Added: 0012743
2010-09-17 02:23	amlor	Note Added: 0012745
2010-09-17 07:02	Eugenitor	Note Added: 0012751
2010-09-17 08:40	Ducky	Note Added: 0012754
2010-09-17 11:51	amlor	Note Added: 0012763
2010-09-17 12:08	Eugenitor	Note Added: 0012764
2010-11-01 03:41	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0003493
2010-11-01 03:42	Logical2u	Summary	Dwarwes kill each other without any reason => 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards results in in-fighting.
2010-11-02 08:03	ethanb	Note Added: 0013585
2010-11-02 08:05	ethanb	Note Edited: 0013585	View Revisions
2010-11-02 08:05	ethanb	Note Edited: 0013585	View Revisions
2010-11-06 08:45	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0003144
2010-11-06 08:47	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0002738
2010-11-06 08:47	Logical2u	Issue Monitored: Dwarfu
2010-11-06 08:49	Logical2u	Note Added: 0013643
2010-11-15 13:51	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0003494
2010-11-15 13:55	Footkerchief	Relationship replaced	related to 0003494
2010-11-20 06:33	Logical2u	Relationship added	related to 0003685
2010-11-20 16:42	Khym Chanur	Issue Monitored: Khym Chanur
2010-12-09 18:02	Gero	Note Added: 0014484
2010-12-09 18:03	Gero	Note Edited: 0014484	View Revisions
2010-12-09 18:06	Gero	Issue Monitored: Gero
2010-12-09 21:02	ethanb	Note Edited: 0013585	View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:07	Quietust	Note Added: 0014485
2010-12-09 21:13	Quietust	Note Edited: 0014485	View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:15	Quietust	Note Edited: 0014485	View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:20	ethanb	Note Added: 0014487
2010-12-09 21:22	ethanb	Note Edited: 0014487	View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:27	ethanb	Note Edited: 0014487	View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:31	ethanb	Note Edited: 0014487	View Revisions
2010-12-09 21:32	ethanb	Note Edited: 0014487	View Revisions
2010-12-11 23:37	Gero	Note Added: 0014548
2010-12-11 23:38	Gero	Note Edited: 0014548	View Revisions
2011-01-07 06:02	Quietust	Note Edited: 0014485	View Revisions
2011-01-08 23:07	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0002913
2011-03-05 07:30	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0003423
2011-03-07 16:04	Footkerchief	Issue Monitored: Quietust
2011-03-07 16:04	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0015932
2011-03-07 16:04	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-03-07 16:06	Footkerchief	Note Added: 0015933
2011-03-09 18:14	Quietust	Issue End Monitor: Quietust
2011-03-20 08:27	Footkerchief	Sticky Issue	No => Yes
2011-03-20 08:27	Footkerchief	Tag Detached: AWAITING UPDATE
2011-04-24 12:13	bobbens	Issue Monitored: bobbens
2011-04-24 12:14	bobbens	Note Added: 0017501
2011-05-03 04:40	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004606
2011-06-28 11:36	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004718
2011-09-11 01:39	Knight Otu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004889
2011-09-11 01:40	Knight Otu	Note Added: 0018706
2011-09-12 03:56	zwei	Issue Monitored: zwei
2011-09-25 09:15	Cryten	Issue Monitored: Cryten
2011-12-04 10:52	Logical2u	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004974
2011-12-04 10:53	Logical2u	Summary	'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards results in in-fighting. => 'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards or liaison results in in-fighting.
2011-12-08 11:03	Dwarfu	Relationship added	has duplicate 0004977
2012-02-26 07:52	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0000871
2012-02-26 07:53	Footkerchief	Summary	'Loyalty Cascade' - ordering squad to attack caravan guards or liaison results in in-fighting. => Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack merchants/traders, guards, or liaison
2012-02-26 07:54	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	related to 0003494
2012-02-26 14:41	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005337
2012-03-08 15:32	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005581
2012-05-22 17:00	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0005412
2012-05-28 08:58	Logical2u	Relationship added	parent of 0005962
2012-05-28 11:28	Footkerchief	Relationship deleted	parent of 0005962
2012-05-28 11:42	Footkerchief	Summary	Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack merchants/traders, guards, or liaison => Loyalty cascade after ordering squad to attack were-citizens, merchants/traders, guards, or liaison
2012-06-24 09:12	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0006051
2012-07-06 06:43	Samthere	Note Added: 0023173
2012-07-13 17:35	toybasher	Note Added: 0023224
2012-07-24 13:03	nshapter	Note Added: 0023348
2013-12-29 10:51	Footkerchief	Tag Attached: Fixed in 0.34.12?
2014-05-12 12:45	Quietust	Note Added: 0024756
2014-07-07 22:23	Footkerchief	Tag Renamed	Fixed in 0.34.12? => Fixed in 0.40.01?
2014-07-11 20:26	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007107
2014-07-15 15:14	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0007349
2014-08-03 10:47	Footkerchief	Relationship added	has duplicate 0007811
2014-08-04 04:06	Steb	Issue Monitored: Steb
2014-08-04 07:16	gaite	Note Added: 0028269
2014-08-04 09:08	4maskwolf	Issue Monitored: 4maskwolf
2014-08-04 09:11	4maskwolf	Note Added: 0028275
2014-08-04 09:13	4maskwolf	Note Edited: 0028275	View Revisions
2014-08-04 09:43	gaite	Note Added: 0028280
2014-09-02 04:51	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0008220
2014-09-28 06:52	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0008250
2014-11-10 10:53	Frogging101	Note Added: 0030948
2014-11-10 10:54	Frogging101	Note Edited: 0030948	View Revisions
2015-01-28 15:30	Footkerchief	Relationship added	related to 0008775
2016-03-12 09:23	Nikinyo	Issue Monitored: Nikinyo
2016-03-12 09:23	Nikinyo	Issue End Monitor: Nikinyo
2016-03-12 09:53	Nikinyo	Note Added: 0034833
2016-03-12 09:53	Nikinyo	Note Edited: 0034833	View Revisions
2016-03-12 10:06	sv-esk	Issue Monitored: sv-esk
2016-03-12 17:07	Nikinyo	Note Edited: 0034833	View Revisions
2016-03-12 17:36	Shonai_Dweller	Note Added: 0034834
2016-03-26 11:47	chaosvolt	Tag Attached: long-standing bug
2017-02-25 12:16	Loci	Relationship added	has duplicate 0010149
2017-04-10 11:30	grand sage	Note Added: 0036403
2018-05-22 16:35	lethosor	Relationship added	related to 0010760
2018-10-21 13:53	Loci	Relationship added	related to 0010935
2020-01-30 19:12	Orkel	Note Added: 0039730
2020-01-30 19:17	Orkel	Note Edited: 0039730	View Revisions
2020-01-31 03:41	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0039732
2020-01-31 03:54	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0039733
2020-02-09 16:22	lordlemonpie	Note Added: 0039992
2020-02-13 11:02	EricBlank	Note Added: 0040039
2020-02-16 09:27	Loci	Relationship added	related to 0011363
2020-02-16 12:22	clanl	Issue Monitored: clanl
2020-02-26 19:00	Loci	Relationship added	related to 0011419
2020-03-01 19:12	Kijiro	Note Added: 0040287
2020-03-07 06:47	eviljapyay	Note Added: 0040324
2020-03-07 08:00	FantasticDorf	Note Added: 0040325
2020-03-07 10:14	Orkel	Note Added: 0040326
2020-03-20 23:46	EricBlank	Note Added: 0040391
2020-03-20 23:48	EricBlank	Note Edited: 0040391	View Revisions